Reasons as to why you voted leave?

[Firstimemam]

Ladies & Gents,

This is really old news but I am new to mumsnet & would be interested as to why exactly you voted "leave" rather than "remain". Just your very honest opinion, I am not here to judge, just very intrigued.

[Bearbehind]

Posters like you are the reason I have never bothered to comment on Brexit on Mumsnet, and also the reason that I never will again.

Eh? continuity simply countered each of you points, what is wrong with that Spiteful

There’s really not much point in commenting in an essentially debating section if you aren’t able to discuss counter arguments to your views.

[ItsInTheSpoon]

Here we go again!!

[tomtom1999xx]

How many ‘why did you vote leave’ threads have there been?
100?
What is the point of them?
Genuinely interested.

[Peregrina]

I am not saying that it will be a smooth transition or without pain for a lot of people however do you think where we were 3 years ago when we voted was such a great place to be ?

No but most of the leading lights of the Leave campaigns were telling us how easy it would be. They need us more than we need them, we hold all the cards, deals done in an afternoon and so on. Some of them like Gisela Stuart cleared out at the first opportunity.

No, we weren't in a great place 3 years ago - people were heartily sick of austerity. But that had come from Westminster predominantly, and was a policy choice.

[lonelyplanetmum]

however do you think where we were 3 years ago when we voted was such a great place to be ?

This is the core issue with the Leave position in a nutshell. This line of thought is how some feel fuelled by Faragist propaganda, but it is logically incorrect.

Yes three years ago many people were not in a great place and their position is deteriorating. For example, there are 4 million people in the U.K. using foodbanks (usage has increased over 70% in the last 5 years).

This. Is. The. Fault. Of.Successive. U.K. governments.

Leapfrogging over the UKs responsibility and falsely attributing blame to the EU is entirely fallacious.

EU membership helped us. It gave Unrestricted access to a market on our doorstep worth $18.8 trillion of 500 million consumers. As members we also have free trade deals with 70 countries around the world. There is no doubt that this all helps our economy.

The fact that for some the UK is not a great place is because the wealth generated has been distributed unfairly - by Westminster.

[bakingbernie]

I feel that the EU has become a huge organisation. There are huge amounts of expenditure supporting the MEP's, and because it is so huge decision making is ponderous. I object thoroughly to decisions about our lives being made by politicians unelected by us. The finances of the EU have not balanced for some 20 years, nor is any effort to do so. If you visit Brussels it irritates me to see the streets of restaurants ( with gas heaters heating the open air) stuffed full of staff and workers from the gigantic EU organisation. I object to the decamping of the whole EU Parliament to Strasbourg once a month for 4 days. Effectively just to keep the French happy. In these days of climate change just why do they do it? I hate how they legislate for us but every country has a different criteria.
What makes me incredulous is Scotland who want to escape from the clutches of a UK Parliament but are happy to align themselves with the EU.
I think the talk of an EU army is quite ridiculous, what is NATO for, it has been around for 70 years and kept the peace effectively in that time.
This is why I voted leave.

[Bearbehind]

bernie you’ve pretty much recited what spiteful said, all of which has been countered.

The EU might not be perfect but have you thought for a second what we lose by leaving?

[Ohdearthefootball]

tomtom try reading the OP's posts then if you're 'genuinely interested'

[Antigonads]

Countered with someone’s pro EU stance.

[ContinuityError]

Countered with someone’s pro EU stance.

Also known as “facts”.

[SpitefulBreasts]

@ContinuityError

[Emilyontmoor]

“it has been around for 70 years” My FIL was a NATO general and a true blue Telegraph reading Thatcherite and he thought that the EU proposals on military networks made a lot of sense. Not an army but working together on military and security projects such as training and procurement where joint working makes sense. The Head of NATO has actually welcomed the proposals too. NATO has indeed been around for 70 years and even before Trump the involvement of the US limits what it can do that is in European interests. The proposals complement NATO, they don’t replace it, though Trump of course might. The idea that there would be battalions of soldiers under an EU flag would alarm the Germans and French even more than it does Leavers for reasons that ought to be obvious if you think of their history. The U.K. has actually been at the front of developing those strategies, and indeed the recent joint anti piracy operation on the Horn of Africa, the first EU naval operation was initially commanded from Northwood until Brexit caused it to shift to Spain. It is such a terrible EU centric plot that non EU countries have now joined the operation including New Zealand.

[1tisILeClerc]

{I feel that the EU has become a huge organisation.}
Europe is a big area, so is the USA, Russia and China. Collectively the EU plays with 'the big boys' and gets deals and advantages that small countries do not get.
{There are huge amounts of expenditure supporting the MEP's, and because it is so huge decision making is ponderous.}
It would be better if it were more nimble but careful deliberation also has benefits.

{ I object thoroughly to decisions about our lives being made by politicians unelected by us.}
So what were the MEPs doing in Strasbourg yesterday, did you not vote for them?
{ The finances of the EU have not balanced for some 20 years, nor is any effort to do so.}
As different countries use differing end of year accounts there will always be discrepancies, not least between countries outside the Euro.
{ If you visit Brussels it irritates me to see the streets of restaurants ( with gas heaters heating the open air) stuffed full of staff and workers from the gigantic EU organisation.}
So they don't do this around Westminster or any other major organisation. I agree about the gas heaters though, they should go.

{ I object to the decamping of the whole EU Parliament to Strasbourg once a month for 4 days. Effectively just to keep the French happy. }
While it is peculiar, there was political expediency at the time.

{ I hate how they legislate for us but every country has a different criteria.}
And the UK has different laws in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland compared to England. Your point being?

{What makes me incredulous is Scotland who want to escape from the clutches of a UK Parliament but are happy to align themselves with the EU.}
Many in Scotland see the advantage of being part of a much bigger union.

{I think the talk of an EU army is quite ridiculous, what is NATO for, it has been around for 70 years and kept the peace effectively in that time.}
The stresses on NATO and the fact it does not fully represent the goals of Europeans, plus the way that Trump is trying to undermine it's activities, suggests that the EU is right to consider an EU army. The incoming heads of the EU also see this as important. Each EU country has it's own army already, and the main purpose for an EU army is to make joint operations better coordinated. There are benefits to commonality of equipment and understanding and cooperation between service personnel.


{This is why I voted leave.}
OK, be a 'party pooper'.

[Ohdearthefootball]

I love the idea of an EU army when we're looking down the barrel of Putin - do you think the Dad's Army of UK will be a good match for him by itself? The delusion is scary

[Antigonads]

The Dad's Army of the UK?

Is that really your view of the UK military?

[Ohdearthefootball]

Anti of course not now, I come from a military family and very proud. If we leave..... who the hell knows, we sure as hell are bigger and better together.

[1tisILeClerc]

Antigonads
The British military are excellent, as far as they go, but arguably quite seriously under resourced. Some of the military hardware is dependent on the USA, for example maintenance of some of the latest fighter jets has to be done by Americans at Turkish airbases.
Many of the EU armies train together anyway, and have done for many years, and are certainly seen working together in Africa and many countries particularly in peace keeping roles.

[Antigonads]

The armies of the EU.

Not the EU army which of course does not exist. Yet.

[1tisILeClerc]

{Not the EU army which of course does not exist. Yet.}

The incoming EP candidates are keen on moving it forward.
Sounds good to me.

[Antigonads]

Another layer of bureaucracy. Yay.

[ContinuityError]

Suggest you read what the Treaties say about creating a common defence force.

[notangelinajolie]

@Songsofexperience

How naïve you are. Lol right back at you.

[DecomposingComposers]

For this reason

I don’t want to be associated with the shameful behaviour of fortress Europe.

And this reason

I'm against an ever closer political, financial, economic, and military union to the point it becomes practically a superstate.

And this reason

United States of Europe - no thanks.

[DecomposingComposers]

So already we've had 1 poster saying the EU army won't happen and another saying it's in the pipeline - so which is true?

My view is that the EU doesn't have a future in its current state, particularly the eurozone. I think it will move towards a united states of Europe, if for no other reason than to exercise control over fiscal policies of individual countries and to make sure that they align. I cannot foresee it staying as it currently is.

[1tisILeClerc]

{My view is that the EU doesn't have a future in its current state, particularly the eurozone. I think it will move towards a united states of Europe, if for no other reason than to exercise control over fiscal policies of individual countries and to make sure that they align. I cannot foresee it staying as it currently is.}

That's the beauty of a democratic organisation, it can change over time to better reflect it's citizens.
An EU army is being discussed. It will take years of negotiations to make it happen if it does.
With the possibility of a hot summer, half the population of the UK might be wiped out by 'Spanish Flu'*, nothing is guaranteed in life except death and taxes.

*Killed more in WW1 that all the fighting, by a large margin.