What does democracy mean to you

[Bearbehind]

In lieu of any actual benefits of Brexit, much of the argument for proceeding, not least from the government, focuses on ‘democracy’.

How can anyone believe that persuing a course of action based on information available 3 years ago, without offering the opportunity to reassess, is democratic.

In fact it’s the antithesis of democracy.

This irony is further compounded by the fact the PM has tried, 3 times, to force her plan through and it sounds like she wants to try again.

So how is any of this democratic?

Not much then 😂

It's a big question OP and one I've been thinking about. Don't want to give a kneejerk reaction. It's a very very good question! So I don't think it's so much 'not much' as it is 'too much'. IYSWIM. I'll have a think. Hopefully others will too.

Of course it is completely democratic to put it to the people again. Anyone who is against this is just frightened of the answer! If the majority of folk still want a no deal Brexit then we will go for it. But how can we know this for sure? We don't. How can another vote be undemocratic? Baffled.

I think democracy works with an educated population, a working fourth estate that isn't radically compromised by marketing values, an accountable and changeable government and a functioning and distinct opposition.

Basically, I've given up. The whole thing is a charade.

Initial thoughts - What does democracy mean to me? It’s an imperfect system that is not fixed but evolves over time and is designed to create a necessarily uneasy balance that enables society to more-or-less work. The difficulties we’re encountering now arise from many things, but not least the fact that too many people have never actually thought about politics or democracy and were labouring under the illusion that David Cameron had both the right to make the promise he did and the power to enact it easily. Both of which were untrue at the time. So instead of directing their anger at having been asked the question they’re directing it at not getting the impossible outcome. So I suppose what arises from that is that a democracy can only function well if its members are educated and informed about how that functioning operates and what its limitations are.

The issue of the WA must be separated from 'democracy' as a general concept.
The incompetence of the government over the last 3 years is culminating with a choice of one of 3 decisions.
Remain in the EU, Leave with 'no' deal (crash out) or a structured withdrawal, the WA.
Had the UK government engaged properly in the negotiation process with the EU from the day after the referendum the WA would have been more 'UK friendly', however the negotiations that were made were being conducted with a background 'noise' of 'Leave' voters and the ERG demanding conflicting outcomes and being generally disruptive.
The world has turned significantly in the 3 years and the political situation outside the UK is rather more unstable than at the time of the referendum. Trump has instigated massive trade wars with China and has made other world destabilising moves. The 'special relationship' between the USA and the UK is now being exposed as not being particularly good for the UK and the UK will have no leverage to do anything except what the USA wants to give the UK.
Cynically, the UK was a back door for the USA to have influence in the EU. If the UK is out, it is worthless.
Relating this to democracy, well it is all very well declaring the UK to be a democratic and sovereign nation, but in the current interconnected world the UK can't do exactly as it pleases and being reduced to just the UK and NI with no strong allegiances will be in the fast lane to obscurity.

Democracy means many things to me, including engaging our young people in the voting process.
Please ask your voting aged kids to register to vote
(and nagging them to actually vote in elections and ballots. )

The Belgians are keen!!

Thanks for the comments. So basically so far, whatever democracy means to you, it is not being demonstrated by Brexit.

Interested to hear from the other side as to how this is actually democracy in operation for them.

The argument that it is undemocratic to have another vote is ridiculous when you take into account:

• Vote Leave broke electoral law
• The referendum was not legally binding
• The result was extremely close.

What does democracy mean to me? One thing it doesn't mean is following 'the will of the people' when it will damage our economy, threaten the Good Friday Agreement, and play into the hands of extreme right-wingers.

I wish there was an edit button. I'd like my last sentence to finish "...the hands of extremists of any shade."

One thing that I don't remember being presented at the referendum was the timescale that leaving would actually encompass.
The 'best guess' which is based on the WA, which is largely a massive list of things that need to be addressed, puts the duration for the 'unraveling' at an absolute minimum of 2 years and realistically it will be 3 or more. To think that the UK could leave 'overnight' is beyond ludicrous. Remaking new trade deals we are looking at 10 years.
Even a 'crash out' which is theoretically 'instant' will take a good 6-9 months to legislate for and that will be horrendous as so many things are interconnected, so the possibility of 'accidents' is very high.
Hardly any new negotiations have commenced so far, and the UK is nearly 3 years into the process. Proper negotiation, let alone implementation won't start until the WA is passed.

best of 3

I’m not even really in favour of another referendum as views have been allowed to become too entrenched. I still don’t think the votes would be cast based on the reality of the situation.

But it’s the principle of completely refusing to deviate from a decision made 3 years ago when there is much more information out there that irks me.

We each have our own opinion and that's why the ruling class and public can't agree where to go next.

I do personally think we should have left with a deal on Friday.

How would that have been democratic adult?

Even if you believe in ‘the will of the people’, they certainly didn’t all vote for no deal.

No deal was virtually unthinkable at the time of the referendum what with all the ‘no one is talking about leaving SM’ and ‘easiest deal in history’ comments.

Adult said leave with A deal, which will be the WA (there is no other route).
The 'deals' that fox and co were bragging about were not the WA which is the Withdrawal Agreement, which a 'list' of 'housekeeping' that the UK has to finalise with the EU, but fantastic trade deals with the world.
So far he has managed a few billion worth but since trade with the EU is around £220Billion, not a lot really.

Sorry, I’m going mad!

But leaving with ‘a’ deal wasn’t even an option on Friday so what’s the point in wishing for that.

That’s what most people who voted Leave wanted, it just wasn’t possible in practice.

But leaving with ‘a’ deal wasn’t even an option on Friday so what’s the point in wishing for that.

The whole thing from start to finish has been a mess.

You have people who voted remain who aren't happy and people who voted leave who aren't happy.

I cannot see how a People’s vote could possibly be seen as undemocratic, given the current deadlock in parliament. I’d favour a ref giving a) WA b) no deal Brexit or c) remain

To a fair extent the UK abandoned the democratic process around Brexit by refusing to engage in proper WA negotiations.
A combination of the EU with input from Olly Robbins? and others created the WA and now there is a binary choice, Revoke and stay in the EU or some form of leaving, ALL of which require the WA to be signed.
The EU are very firmly in the driving seat over this. There will be NO further negotiations of significance until the WA is signed. They said this in November and have repeated this ever since but the UK has refused to listen and engage.
The only degree of negotiation is to sign it voluntarily 'now' (within the next 10 days) or 'by force' whenever the UK decides it would like to have any trade with the EU.
Whatever the UK government say won't make much difference, they gave away the chance over a year ago.

Where are all the Leavers? They keep telling us about democracy.

Democracy was lost the moment TM decreed what the ‘red lines’ were, seemingly with minimal input from anyone else.

Everything since then has been trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.