Reasons to remain

[Windowsareforcheaters]

I know it's been done before but in response to leavers saying they don't want to give reasons to leave because:

• they have done it before
• Remainers never say why we should stay
• Remainers don't use facts

Could we have (yet another) thread of reasons to remain?

I'll start.

We should remain because the EU is, in part, responsible, for the longest period of peace in Western Europe.

A strong united Europe is a counter balance to China and the USA.

U.K. isolationism has been attempted historically and failed. We are stronger together.

It is very strange to say that we need to become merged into a greater bloc in order to have peace. I don’t think an ever-closer union is a prequisite for peace. Imposing that is more likely to foster instability.

It may not be reformed. We may not get to decide the reforms (if we were to stay). In a leave situation, the alternative is an extradition treaty which provides proper safeguards. To me the arrest warrant is not a good argument for remaining.

It seems to me that pps are collexting lots of little things that are not so significant and bundling them together as if it makes a strong argut. But looking ar the individual points, it seems that many of them have not been carefully examined.

Losing the Galileo project is a real shame, that I do agree. But to me it is not a reason to stay in the EU.

Cooperation on security, cooperation on access to medical care, visas for skilled workers for the NHS, these are all things that do not need to end simoly because the UK leaves the EU. These are things that are in the UK and the EU’s mutual interest. This is why cooperation on these very points happens all the time on an international basis.

Money for infrastructure is an interesting one. This is just redistribution on a wider scale. Is the remain argument that you prefer the EU decide how/where to distribute funds to certain areas rather than your more directly elected government? I disagree with that for democratic reasons and also for political reasons. I accept others will be more comfortable about this (especially if they live in an area the where the EU decided to invest)

Ok, what other important points have I missed?

Reasons to remain.

Here’s my (previously prepared ) alphabeticalish list of reasons for remaining.
We should revoke and remain because ... in the areas where we did give a limited remit to our shared EU body it made positive difference.

Here are positives of EU membership and some negatives for going it alone:

+ Academic collaboration and funding.At least £500m academic funding a year already lost due to the Leave vote. The scale of losses to UK research from a no-deal Brexit are clear. Science projects today can only be sustained between countries. Research has globalised. For example the Hadron Collider, the world's largest particle accelerator was only possible through international collaboration.
UK science had received increasing levels of European Union resources. Almost €1.4 billion given since 2014.Since 2007 We won almost 1,400 of more than 5,000 grants from the European Research Council, receiving 22% of allocated funds. That support made many achievements possible eg 3D imaging for regenerative medicine and understanding of proto-galaxies to the latest advances in nano-science.That is all gone.

+Air travel-cheaper,safer.

+Beaches and rivers-With the limited shared powers regarding the environment the EU contributed to improved cleaner,safer coastal regions.

-Brexit itself-This was a made up word with X factor type appeal. It’s absurd to have a binding vote on something that was entirely unknown, undefined and uncosted. TM even said the same thing about indicative votes this week.Contrast the Scottish ref which had a detailed white paper before the referendum.
The reality is we voted for a pig in a poke. At the time we voted there were no description or evaluation of the options. No plan - no evidence..

⁃	<strong> Bus</strong> <strong>claims</strong>.  The Leave campaign was exaggerated or spun to the point of profound deceit. Our EU membership cost 0.7% of GDP. It was a splash in the ocean of NHS annual needs.In return for this statistically negligible membership fee, we got unrestricted access to a market on our doorstep worth $18.8 trillion of 500 million consumers.

+ Consumer protection-improved consumer protection and better product safety.

+ Child abduction- Again, although not having as many powers as some seemed to think, EU membership smoothed a useful laws on domestic issues such as child maintenance and abduction.

+Cross border policing and European arrest warrant to help combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling.European arrest warrant making pursuit of such crime easier. There’s not as much crime as people think but we do need easy joint mechanisms for dealing with it.
⁃ Dive in the pound The UK economy was the fifth strongest in the world. It’s already dropped to seventh place. It will drop further the pound has taken a massive dive and seems highly likely to fall further. The government’s own forecasts unequivocally confirm that every Brexit option is shit for the UK economy.

⁃

Continued E to J

⁃	Economy<strong> As members of the EU we went from being the poor man of Europe to the world’s 5 th strongest economy. We have now started falling. Even the government’s own impact assessments say on any Brexit scenario we will be worse off. We are a global laughing stock at our insane act of self-harm. Giving up</strong>

an envied international role fed by internal government squabbling driven by a policy to maintain the rich and poor divide.It's unbelievable and heartbreaking.
The ref should only ever be a vote held to explore the options for leaving .A few skewed agitating right wing politicians wanted to further feather their own nests. We’ve explored all options now.The result is (even on the government’s own forecasts) that every Brexit option is shit for the one. UK economy.
*
Environmental standards-Meaningful agreement on environmental standards only ever can come from collaboration.Do we really think Gove as either environment minister of possibly PM will lead the way environmentally on his own? The EU leads the world on environmental policy. Investment into alternative energy etc.

+Erasmus what better opportunity for our young people.

+Equal pay-There has been significant EU influence on women’s rights and closing the gap ; although there is still a pay gap it would have been worse otherwise.
*
*+Food- ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives and improved food labelling.

+Free medical cover when visiting the EU-EHIC*
*
+Freedom to travel, live and work across Europe. At least 1.8 Million Brits living in other EU countries.

+Global companies- Lucrative global companies setting up their European bases in London as a gateway to Europe- now quitting daily of course.

+Holiday entitlement - basic work holiday allocation. Like Frances O’Grady of the Trade Union Congress chief I believe these rights are at risk. Liam Fox has expressly said he wants to deregulate workers’ rights.We all know how weak employment rights are in the US and that is the way we are headed too.

+Human rights-Support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond.

+Immigration -EU citizens. Net contributors to the UK economy- more than those native born. More than non EU citizens. Always possible to address those with no employment after three months if we'd wanted to. Desperately needed skilled and good NHS staff.

+Just in time delivery -Around 45% of our exports are to the EU. JIT deliveries are essential for many large employers like the automotive industry.

Continued J to P

Jobs-Our link to Europe fostered millions of jobs. Huge global companies are reducing, rationalising, leaving. See the list of businesses already quitting on the charting our nemesis thread.

+Leaders- Politicians and the few business leaders pushing for this were dodgy and most of them scarpered . This whole clusterfuck was led by embarrassing, xenophobic, self interested little-Englander opinions of appalling men like Gove ,Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg. Be careful who you get into bed with.

Lead free petrol

Maternity and paternity leave-The EU helped lay down minimum maternity/paternity leave protections not just for us but we helped influence other countries too.

+Military-Joint European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa. Russia is also the biggest threat. Don’t we want a joint insurance policy with our neighbours just in case.

+Mobile charges-cheaper, easier.

+Northern Ireland can no one remember life before the GFA? Really?

+Patents. Europe-wide patent and copyright protection.

+Peace The real reason why the EU was originated were all about peace- to make the horror of WWI and II impossible to repeat by linking the European economies and trade together.A lasting peace with the EU standing together with us predominantly at the helm. 60 years as the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It also assisted the political, social and economic transformation of former dictatorships.

+Regeneration- North of England, Wales regions that our own government has been much less inclined to invest in. Structural funding to areas hit by former industrial decline.

• Scotland do not want this. They really don’t. We should listen.

+Single market -No paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market.

+ Solidarity-The EU represented solidarity against regular Russian incursions into our sea and airspace.We are almost certainly weaker and more vulnerable alone.

+Smoke-free workplaces.

+Terrorism- Joint Counter terrorism intelligence.

+Trade -Providing 57% of our trade.The EU, and its 740 million consumers, is in a much better position to negotiate with the world than the UK alone (with just 64 million consumers).

+Universities-EU-funded research and collaboration.

+WTO-Bloc negotiation at the WTO. The other Trade deals already negotiated with rest of the world via the EU. To replicate those will take years and we do not have sufficient experienced negotiators.

Wildlife protection -stronger in EU than elsewhere in the world.

Work placements- Funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad.

Working week-The right not to work more than a 48-hour week unless choosing otherwise. Although U.K. did choose to retain ability to opt out.

Contrary to popular belief the EU is essentially a peace focussed trading bloc which we have shared limited powers with. A bloc we formerly led.The areas where it can make lives better are limited to the environment, agricultural and food and safety standards and some workers’ rights. It cannot, for example, pump money into say the NHS,or into Portuguese healthcare, because that is a matter for national governments.

In its limited areas it has made a positive difference.

Just in time delivery -Around 45% of our exports are to the EU. JIT deliveries are essential for many large employers like the automotive industry.EU membership has facilitated this for all our benefit.

Lead free petrol

Mobile charges-cheaper, easier.

Patents-Europe-wide patent and copyright protection.

Peace- The real reason why the EU was originated were all about peace- to make the horror of WWI and II impossible to repeat by linking the European economies and trade together.A lasting peace with the EU standing together with us predominantly at the helm. 60 years as the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

Lonely planetmum

I want to reply to some of these but will have to do that tomorrow (not because I don’t have ready comments but because I literally don’t have time!)

Sorry J to W

You get the gist but this link does it better!

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@TulipsTulipsTulips It is very strange to say that we need to become merged into a greater bloc in order to have peace. I don’t think an ever-closer union is a prequisite for peace

Not strange at all when you look at the evidence.

The period since WW2 when we have had closer and closer ties with the EU is the longest period of peace In Western Europe. Ever.

Isolationism has consistently failed.

It's not strange at all it is a reflection of what has happen historically. Closer ties lead to peace.

Just noted that upthread there were some incorrect references to the EU growing ever closer.This was always a myth.

Farage, Fox ,JRM and co simply misled us:

1. Cameron expressly agreed that the United Kingdom... "was not committed to further political integration into the European Union." This was clearly and easily confirmed In Feb 2016.

1. The treaties we agreed and helped draft contained touchy feely preambles. These were about promoting trust and understanding among peoples in open and democratic societies. Anyone who knows anything about the law knows that preambles are not the operative part of an agreement.

It has been explained time and time again that 'getting closer' referred to men and women - people showing solidarity. It was not a political Union and did not refer to closer governments.

The fiction of a European super-state was always a UK myth. Apart from anything else it's absurd. What? One government setting for example elderly and health care policy and education curricula for 500 milllion people?

Lies like this being spread- suited those like Liam Fox who do want to absorb us into a superstate - but with the US. ( Read up on his Atlantic bridge fiasco).

So I'm happy to debate with anyone as long as nonsense about closer political union is dropped. This was never intended.

Ironically I now do hope that once we have evicted ourselves the remaining member states do decide to move for some closer political union. It provides a fantastic solidarity for them all against the neighbouring Russia who (lets face it ) are far more of a threat than a few Belgians.

We will be out in the cold - but hey ho at least some good will have come out of it for other countries.

https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-ever-closer-union/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

Is that the same FullFact that rubbished the claims of one million plus people on the second referendum march?

Do you think we will need fullfact to work out how many leavers go to the 'Brexit day' demonstrations today?

Or will we be able to count them using the fingers of one hand?