Anyone else feel uncomfortable with the idea of a second referendum, given the first?

[MuseumofInnocence]

Apologies, as I'm sure this has been done elsewhere.

I've been thinking a lot about the role of parliamentary sovereignty and how it differs from direct democracy. I was listening to Michael Heseltine again who gave a great speech at the March yesterday. He talks a lot about Parliament and how it is the foundations of our freedom, MPs do a great job, commit great service and so on. And then he concludes that "we the people, must be given the final say". I am a remainer and therefore sympathetic to this view, but given how the first went, and the argument for representative democracy, am I being a bit intellectually dishonest if I go down this road? If MPs were able to fulfil their duty, they would see that Brexit was not in the interests of the UK, and revoke Article 50?

Window I can see me and you are not going to see eye to eye on this one. And that's fair enough, not everyone need agree on everything.

Current NATO operations and UN missions aren't non compatible at all. The response to the Ebola crisis was extrodanary, and ongoing air operations above the middle East with both joint UK and US intelligence and sharing of resources is working well, and repeated and consistent drone attacks have helped to reduce the ISIS califate considerably.

I do not believe at all that the EU which is representative of over 28 nations should have a single seat and decide the fate of mainland Europe and its military resources. France and the UK have the largest armed forces and are close European allies. Their seats work well and have done for over 70 years.

Look at Crimea and the Ukraine, hypothetically if the seat was a EU seat all of mainland Europe could have been dragged in to a land grab and civil war because the EU seat would have deemed it a attack on the EU.

Like I said I'm not anti-EU. I just really really don't think they should have any standing military powers or ability to unify 28 military forces.

But I'm happy to agree to disagree Window 🙂

I don't think the EU army is envisioned as a standing military force.

There are 193 members of the UN not all are included in every engagement I think 28 is doable.

I do think the ability to organise a joint task force under pre establish rules would make a flexible European response a useful option.

The potential EU force is always presented as a standing force, lead by the French! The worst possible option for the English - and I say English not British advisedly.

By presenting this horrific option it encourages people to oppose it when it might not be that big a deal at all.

The security council discussion is for another time I think.

I would much prefer the government to revoke A50 rather than a 2nd referendum. Another ref would be vicious and incredibly divisive - it would be portrayed as 'the elite stealing your freedom' etc, people would feel very betrayed by anyone portrayed as 'other' to them in Remain one.

If the government revoked, people would be pissed off, but then get over it and go 'Huh, bloody politicians' and move on. But a 2nd ref could cause lasting societal resentment and support a grass-roots far right movement.

I am a remainer but i would hate another referendum.

You don’t get to fuck the entire country over in the name of “democracy”

Labour were voted in democratically in 1997 by a big majority and look at the state if UK in 2010. UK had been flooded with immigrants and the famous note from labour "there is no money left"

If that was not doing over the entire country what is?

{Labour were voted in democratically in 1997 by a big majority and look at the state if UK in 2010. UK had been flooded with immigrants and the famous note from labour "there is no money left"}

As usual, more 'leaver' crap that misses the point entirely.
Immigration and the banking crisis are not related, get over it.

Democracy is doing what the majority voted fort at the time they were asked to choose. Labour won by a big margin in 1997, because people voted labour, not because they thought labour were better, but because people though labour were the least worst option. Look at the gaffes they made:

Gordon Brown selling off gold at a low price that cost the UK Billions

Opening up immigration to Eastern Europeans and all allowing them to send UK Taxpayers money back to their home countries.

And if anyone says "but they were working and paying taxes in the UK" my reply is:

"Ex wife is EE and works part time on minimum wage and does not earn enough to pay UK taxes, but is still entitled to Child Benefit, Child Tax Credits and Working Tax Credits. Total ex receives exceeds in government handouts exceeds my father's pension after he spent his entire life in the public sector"

What @hayf said ages ago. Not a single Brexit politician had any clue, when given the opportunity to deliver. It's little wonder the gap was filled by others.

*But they were working and paying taxes in the U.K.
*
Yes finally we are getting consensus and understanding on this on all sides. You can't look at individual examples but must assess the impact on the country as a whole.

As most people now acknowledge..apart from Farage
EU Migrants contributed approximately £2,300 more each per annum to UK public finances (including NHS funding and adult social care etc) than other U.K. residents.

For EU13+ migrants their contribution is £3,700 higher each per annum to the public finances than the average UK adult. ( EU13+ are the EU members before 2004 plus EEA members plus Switzerland. )

Non-EEA migrants contributed around £840 less.

Labour were voted in democratically in 1997 by a big majority and look at the state if UK in 2010. UK had been flooded with immigrants and the famous note from labour "there is no money left"

Yes and there were two more elections where people were able to vote for alternative parties and didn’t. 1997 wasn’t a once in a lifetime result.

If that was not doing over the entire country what is?

The way the Tories have run the place since 2010? Cruel, heartless policies and this Brexit fiasco?

Not sure if Pizza posted before about ex DWs?

There was another poster on here who had an accountant managing his tax affairs and was successful but then had an exDW born in the EU who had to live on benefits post their divorce?

Anyway as I say looking at one example isn't helpful- it's the net proven positive benefit to the disunited Kingdom and economy that needs to be assessed.

Merkel and Macron's EU army. They've duscussed it quite openly including when they signed their treaty recently. Just search the BBC or youtube.

So your sources are the state broadcaster and a platform where people can just make shit up, when do we start citizenship and critical thinking classes in school its clearly needed jesus wept

Anyway as I say looking at one example isn't helpful- it's the net proven positive benefit to the disunited Kingdom and economy that needs to be assessed

Don't tell me that the average voter spends; hours, days or even weeks in libraries or on the internet researching economic data before they vote. They are more likely to vote on what they hear on TV, what they read in the press, what they hear during campaigns and what they have experienced as individuals over time.

I am from North of UK whose major industries were; coal mining, ship building and steel production. Mines have gone. Shipbuilding and steel nowhere near what it used to be. However, people from the former industrial areas of Northern UK (the miners in particular) vote labour as it is their tradition even though the mines were closed in 1985, 34 years ago.

{Merkel and Macron's EU army. They've duscussed it quite openly including when they signed their treaty recently. Just search the BBC or youtube.}

Since historically it has been the power of France and Germany fighting each other, the fact they have made a treaty together that totally rules out a war between them is great. Expanding this to include as many other countries within Europe enhances European security.
The UK army is down to a bit over 82,000 strong and is underfunded and to think they alone can tackle a serious incursion is fanciful.

Democracy is doing what the majority voted fort at the time they were asked to choose

Nope. That is a very, very simplistic view of democracy. What you are describing is mob rule.

Democracy has complex structures to ensure we do not have the tyranny of the majority. Democracy involves non elected checks and balances to make sure we do what is best for the country and not the mob.

{I am from North of UK whose major industries were; coal mining, ship building and steel production. Mines have gone. Shipbuilding and steel nowhere near what it used to be. However, people from the former industrial areas of Northern UK (the miners in particular) vote labour as it is their tradition even though the mines were closed in 1985, 34 years ago.}

So consecutive UK sovereign governments have failed to address the issue of uneconomic 'heavy industry' and by various means have let the areas decline. None of this is due to the EU.
Now, when this deprivation is coming to a real head, voters and a significant number in the government/MPs want to leave the EU thus raising tariffs and reduce inward investment to make the process of regeneration many times more difficult.
And leavers want respect for this level of thinking?

Democracy involves non elected checks and balances to make sure we do what is best for the country and not the mob

Democracy as defined in the English dictionary:

democracy
/dɪˈmɒkrəsi/Submit
noun

a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.
"a system of parliamentary democracy"
synonyms: representative government, elective government, constitutional government, popular government; More

a state governed under a system of democracy.
plural noun: democracies
"a multiparty democracy"

control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.
"the intended extension of industrial democracy"

Where in the definition above does it make reference to mobs or that minorities shall take priority over the majority?

Brexit is floundering because MP's are following their own agenda as opposed to the result of a vote.

What is best for the Country is a matter of opinion. Essential difference between the referendum voters is simple:

Leave voters think UK will be better off by leaving the EU.

Remain voters think UK will be worse off by leaving the EU.

Point is people can choose.

I am from North of UK whose major industries were ...ship building...

I know my Grandfather and grandfather both worked all their lives on the Hull docks. We've now shifted to an 80% financial services based economy - that's to do with times a changing (nowt to do with our joint EU membership).

{Point is people can choose.}

Of course they can. YOU can decide to put your hand into a meat mincer, but don't expect me to do the same.
Many who voted Remain either knew or strongly suspected the UK would be worse off by leaving, both monetarily and by LOSS of freedoms. Thus far they have been proven correct.

{both monetarily and by LOSS of freedoms. Thus far they have been proven correct.}

And, having failed to come up with a decent plan to implement leave in 3 years, the UK is hemorrhaging money at over 3 times the EU contribution, no improvements have been made to the UK and the government who will HAVE to conduct years of critical negotiations are squabbling like rats in a sack.

We've now shifted to an 80% financial services based economy - that's to do with times a changing

I am aware of that. Point was that some people vote based on tradition as opposed to in depth research.

It's clear we need a cross party committee to work through what it is that we need to achieve in a deal with the EU

Sounds good on paper, but in reality will never happen. Labour party throughout Brexit has seen it as a chance to criticize the Conservative party in the hope a general election is called.

MP's in general looking out for themselves and what is best for UK is secondary.

{ Point was that some people vote based on tradition as opposed to in depth research.}
So 'my grandparents voted for a crap Idea so I need to do the same without thinking the circumstances might have changed' is a basis for killing the UK economy. Just another excuse to blame someone else.