Anyone else feel uncomfortable with the idea of a second referendum, given the first?

[MuseumofInnocence]

Apologies, as I'm sure this has been done elsewhere.

I've been thinking a lot about the role of parliamentary sovereignty and how it differs from direct democracy. I was listening to Michael Heseltine again who gave a great speech at the March yesterday. He talks a lot about Parliament and how it is the foundations of our freedom, MPs do a great job, commit great service and so on. And then he concludes that "we the people, must be given the final say". I am a remainer and therefore sympathetic to this view, but given how the first went, and the argument for representative democracy, am I being a bit intellectually dishonest if I go down this road? If MPs were able to fulfil their duty, they would see that Brexit was not in the interests of the UK, and revoke Article 50?

[lonelyplanetmum]

Regarding foreign aid.Here are facts.

full~fact

Up until this political mid life crisis we were the 5 th richest nation.

It seems to me that Tory austerity which was disproportionately imposed on the poorest has convinced everyone we were a poor nation. We weren't but are doing our utmost to become so.

Until this shot show we were the 5th richest country.At the top of the developed nations league.. We were disproportionately affluent for our size.

All developed countries have a UN target of just over 0.5 % for foreign aid. ( The UN is nothing to do with the EU of course.) This small humanitarian aid target has been the case since the 1970’s. The U.K. rarely meets the target and mostly has hovered at around 0.3 to 0.4%

So despite being signed up to the target since 1974 historically we don’t meet it.

This humanitarian aid is nothing to do with the EU anyway.( Although coincidentally our contribution for EU membership was also around 0.7%.) In return for this statistically negligible membership fee, we got unrestricted access to a market on our doorstep worth $18.8 trillion of 500 million people.

It is very hard for normal people with a budget in £10s to talk about budgets in billions and trillions. It always helps to think in terms of % of GDP.

[lonelyplanetmum]

shot-show? I have a well mannered auto correct.

[Namenic]

@PizzaCafe - no deal is ok for you but you should accept that 52% did NOT vote for it.

Some had 1st preference customs union, others had single market (eg some in the leave campaign said we would be able to continue banking etc as normal). Some people in NI would prefer remain to withdrawal agreement.

Best way is to have AV referendum with at least no deal, WA and remain on ballot (Norway too if opposition can negotiate quickly with EU). Then people can rank their preferences. There is NO MAJORITY for no deal as far as I can see.

[PizzaCafe2016]

you should accept that 52% did NOT vote for it

How can anyone know what the 52% voted for exactly? The ballot paper was either:

Leave

or

Remain

I don't remember the ballot paper saying that is you choose leave you must turn the page over and choose from a list of pre-determined leave options.

No deal might be the least desirable result for some, but does not scare me at all. Given the choice between no deal or remain it would be no deal for me every time.

I don't believe it is possible to please both those that voted remain and those that voted leave as they want exact opposites.

[1tisILeClerc]

PizzaCafe2016
Is either lacking in critical thinking or is deliberately making provocative statements to upset people.
Either way, not exactly a 'desirable' person.
Practically all of the 'ills' in the UK are entirely down to the failure of government, either the Tories now, or previous governments going back several decades.
The government does not prioritise the citizens of the UK.

[Acis]

You may become very scared of no deal if you or someone you love reaches a position where you urgently need lifesaving medication which we can neither manufacture nor import.

[YouBumder]

No deal does not scare me.

Showing exactly why the public shouldn’t get this put to them as a choice.

Do you not think the reason there has been all this panic is because no deal is going to be incredibly damaging to the country and Parliament and the gov are doing everything to try and avoid it? If it wasn’t scary we’d be crashing out on Friday.

[lonelyplanetmum]

deliberately making provocative statements

LeClerc on this occasion I agree. I normally try to be polite to all posters but it is very frustrating when posters repeat false rhetoric, especially when it is similar to the sound bites uttered by certain politicians.

If a poster logically explains the facts on an issue in response then the other poster should respond to it logically.

Changing tack and failure to respond to the facts undermines debate and progress. I'd rather posters acknowledged the objective facts and just said yes that is true but these are still my subjective feelings.

[YouBumder]

I don't believe it is possible to please both those that voted remain and those that voted leave as they want exact opposites.

Which is why there should never have been a referendum in the first place!

[lonelyplanetmum]

no deal is going to be incredibly damaging to the country and Parliament and the gov are doing everything to try and avoid it?

And apart from Rees Mogg's and other disaster capitalist funds where are any objective signs of a positive boost to the economy from a No deal?

In any of this shit show we do have posters defending it and we will survive and can cope and aren't scared but. ..Where.is. The. Positive.case?

The glorious benefits?

Answer- = there just aren't any.

[YouBumder]

No problem with foreign aid if you have spare cash, but to borrow money to give away overseas as opposed to looking after your own first does not represent good setting of priorities.

I mentioned this on another thread but everyone gets a letter from HMRC every year showing them how much tax they paid and where it has been spent. By far the smallest percentages were on EU membership (0.69%) and foreign aid (a tiny amount more, about 0.75%). By far more goes on everything else including welfare, health and education. It’s totally ill informed to think that by not having to pay those 2 things that cost each of us a comparatively timely amount the country is going to be swimming in milk and honey with loads more dosh to be given to “our own”.

[YouBumder]

The glorious benefits?

Welll quite. Plenty of parroting “we can make our own deals!” usually uttered by people who couldn’t negotiate themselves out of a paper bag but seem to think that negotiating multiple complex trade deals will somehow be quick and straightforward.

Anyone who thinks JRM has the interests of the country as opposed to his own pocket at heart is a fool.

[1tisILeClerc]

{I don't believe it is possible to please both those that voted remain and those that voted leave as they want exact opposites.}

If you wound the clock back to just before the referendum those who voted leave and those that wanted to remain WERE basically wanting the same thing, a more equal distribution of the UK's wealth across the country rather than being so heavily weighted to London and the South East. Areas of London benefit 5 times more in infrastructure spending compared to many in the North / South West. Roads, public transport, Internet access.
Leavers chose to believe that the EU was 'to blame' because the Tories (and many in Labour before) are more prepared to lie about the role of being an EU member than take responsibility and look after the whole of the UK.
The thing is, when the UK leaves, the truth behind this will be more exposed and the fact that there is NO coherent PLAN to rejuvenate the UK. To top it off, they are pushing manufacturing and finance industry out and at the same time making any future business activity harder by incurring tariffs.

[PizzaCafe2016]

Which is why there should never have been a referendum in the first place!

But UK did have a referendum and the vote was leave all be it by a small margin. More significantly article 50 was started on 29 March 2017. So by 29 March 2019 (2 days from now) UK was meant to leave the EU either with a deal or without a deal.

EU had agreed to extend to 12 April 2019 on the basis that UK would accept the Withdrawal Agreement and UK to remain in EU till 22 May 2019 to enable time to complete formalities. However, since then MP's have taken over the Brexit process and are now talking about alternative forms of Brexit, but EU are still working on the basis that the WA will be approved before 12 April 2019.

If T May present the same deal again then the speaker Bercow has to disallow for the same reason as he disallowed it last time. If he changes his mind then be definition he is just playing games.

My guess is there will be further extensions to article 50. That only adds to the uncertainty on both sides of the English Channel and businesses must be going crazy as they don't know what to plan for.

Without realizing it the more UK MP's mess about the closer they bring to UK to a no deal scenario.

[1tisILeClerc]

The WA is not a 'deal', as others and I keep repeating.
It is the first step in negotiations for the UK to withdraw from the European union.
It is the ONLY plan that the EU will accept.
The alternatives are to revoke or leave with no deal.
The fact that the UK government has messed around for nearly 3 years and had to ask for 'extra time' from the UK because the UK still has no coherent plan.
Since it has taken 3 years and no plan, it does not bode well for the negotiations that have to commence the morning after the WA is signed.

[PizzaCafe2016]

Since it has taken 3 years and no plan, it does not bode well for the negotiations that have to commence the morning after the WA is signed

Correct. So let's leave with no deal. At least that way UK government can say they actually delivered Brexit. As for the other option of revoke the MP's will never allow that as they know it is the end of their jobs. I remember another thread where the question was what would be more damaging to Conservative party, no deal or revoke and the consensus was revoke even from those who are clear remain voters.

[Mistigri]

There is no majority for no deal, and it would involve breaching an international treaty.

I think pizza is being paid to spam propaganda all over mumsnet and I for one find it tiresome.

[lonelyplanetmum]

I for one find it tiresome

Me for two.

[lonelyplanetmum]

*Youbumder
*
Just wanted to say that this is what I have been banging on about endlessly on these threads but you said it so concisely and articulately it deserves repeating..

By far the smallest percentages [ of U.K. expenditure] were on EU membership (0.69%) and foreign aid (a tiny amount more, about 0.75%). By far more goes on everything else including welfare, health and education. It’s totally ill informed to think that by not having to pay those 2 things that cost each of us a comparatively tiny amount the country is going to be swimming in milk and honey with loads more dosh to be given to “our own”.

[Mistigri]

If we're going to get deleted or banned let's do it properly.

It is no coincidence that after the march and the petition, new posters are spamming Brexit threads. We know what you're doing, we're just not allowed to say so, which means that genuine posters - mumsnet regulars - waste time giving good-faith replies to bad-faith people.

Happened in the run up to the referendum, happening again now another referendum looks possible.

What will happen is that good-faith posters who point this out will get deleted, allowing paid propagandists to shut down discussion.

As you were.

[havingtochangeusernameagain]

No deal does not scare me

Well it scares me. And there's no mandate for it because the Leave campaign specifically said in its literature that we would not leave without a deal. You know, like the "we will implement what you decide".

[PizzaCafe2016]

You know, like the "we will implement what you decide"

This is correct, but where on the ballot paper did it say

“Only chosen leave if you are prepared to accept a no deal leave”

Some prominent people have appeared on question time and said on national TV that no deal is possible and UK could survive on WTO terms. Energy minister Clare Perry comes to mind. And of course there is the irrepressible JRM.

[Jaxhog]

If MPs were able to fulfil their duty, they would see that Brexit was not in the interests of the UK, and revoke Article 50?

The problem is that the majority of MPs DO see this. Only, because 'the people' voted for Brexit, they feel they can't do it.

[PizzaCafe2016]

If MPs were able to fulfil their duty, they would see that Brexit was not in the interests of the UK, and revoke Article 50?

MP (high) salaries and allowance (also high) are paid from general taxation which is paid by the UK taxpayers. So in simple terms the MPs are the employees of the UK taxpayers.

I think it is reasonable for employees to follow the instructions of their employers in return for their salaries.

[Rufusthebewilderedreindeer]

I agree misti

Making stuff up, not engaging and not providing evidence