Is there such a thing as a heavyweight Brexiteer?

[lunicorn]

I'm thinking if politicians, economists and lawyers. Not thinking of charisma and personality, more of a thorough in depth knowledge of economics and politics
I kind of imagine there being 20,000 remain economists and 5 maverick Brexiteer ones.

In the Hoc I only really trust Frank Field.

I respect Frank Field as a man of integrity (so, so rare in our politicians!), but I don't always agree with him.

Frank Field is arguably the best-respected politician

Only by Frank Field.

Oh, and by a little clutch of posters (or one, with lots of names?) on MN who never utter his name without appending "highly respected" or "honourable" or some other sanctifying epithet. I almost never see an unadorned reference to "Frank Field", unlike every other MP.

It's an interesting and persistent phenomenon.

Frank Field was one of the architects of Universal Credit and of the disastrous restructuring of disability benefits.

Having set things on fire, he now rushes in with clanging bell and gleaming helmet, shouting loudly about his heroism in playing with the big hose.

I believe Frank Field has stated he believes in Remain but his job is to represent his constituents (Birkenhead) who voted Leave. Therefore he's putting his personal belief aside

26 April 2016

Frank Field tells Labour supporters: Vote Leave and get a new Prime Minister
www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/74289/frank-field-tells-labour-supporters-vote-leave-and

Frank Field, who is one of a handful of Labour MPs to declare in favour of leaving the European Union, called on Labour members to “have a pop” at the Government by voting for Leave on 23 June.

{In 1997, in The Sovereign Individual, Rees-Mogg Sr recommended Singapore to readers who were entrepreneurs, as one of several countries that “impose low costs” on business. The book also advised readers to use tax havens. In 2007, after studying history at Oxford like his father, Jacob co-founded Somerset Capital Management – the name a classic Rees-Mogg mixture of the cosy and the calculating – which has since become a highly profitable London company, investing money for clients in “emerging markets” such as south-east Asia. The company also operates from Singapore, and has a subsidiary in the Cayman Islands. Both are tax havens.}
So, Take your money out of the UK, and pay as little tax as possible.
As the welfare state is dependent on people paying taxes, who is losing out here?

You might not like Dyson or Tim Martin or the many other pro-Brexit small business people like myself, who would prefer to have Canada-style government

I assume that was supposed to read "trade deal" not govt*
Getting to any future deal involves finalising a withdrawal arrangement. This WA was one pathway to a future relationship which could be a form of Canada++.
But problem is finding a version of Canada that means frictionless trade over Norn border.
All vote has done tonite is delayed the time needed to ever get to Canada++.

*Canada is a parliamentary democracy, like Britain.
*Dyson & Tim Martin are long time conservative party members.
*Canada currently has a liberal (not conservative) govt.

Apologies, no idea where I got that opinion of Frank Field from. Looks like I couldn't be more wrong.

Oh it's entirely possible you got that opinion from Field himself.

I mean, I don't know. But playing on both teams is very Frank...

I worked for Wetherspoons for many years. Tim Martin's main leaver motivation is the European Working Time Directive. Getting rid of that will benefit him. It won't benefit ordinary people in any way

Digby Jones.

As soon as someone mentions Andrew Lilico, can I shout bingo?

I'm shouting 'bingo' for Digby Jones. I loathe the man. Very aware of what will bring him ££££, but all the compassion of a gnat. I have seen him interviewed many a time on tv, seeing as he has been the go-to businessman for sound bites. On no occasion have I felt he demonstrates an understanding of the wider issues beyond the needs of (a section of) business. He has zero understanding of politics, international relations, macroeconomics , or the intricacies of government/civil service etc.

Would I listen to him and respect his opinions on running a business? Yes, absolutely.

Would I take on board his lobbying for the needs of business to be taken into account re government policy, trade deals, etc? Yes, absolutely, in the context of balancing them against wider considerations.

Would I uncritically swallow his views on Brexit across the whole gamut of governance? Absolutely not. He simply does not have the knowledge or expertise and talks from a position of blinkered bias towards business. This is not adequate. We need to balance ALL issues and considerations.

As an example, Digby Jones hasn't the first clue about the needs of financial markets, and what hampers their operation/drives business overseas. Yet this industry is the economic powerhouse for the whole country.

Mervyn Kong
Former Bank of England Gov.

Mervyn King!!

Business people will look at Leave or Remain through the window of what is good for them i.e. Victorian Mill owners or the companies that mined and used asbestos or cigarette companies... none gave a stuff about what they were doing to the wider community.

Politicians and Academics "can" set the framework for a fair and equitable society...

Personally, i like listening to historians & history as to what the future may well hold and the dangers we are putting ourselves (and europe) through.

Frank Field comes across as slightly confused these days, he is 76.

Mervyn King is a voice that calls for moderation in assessments, but he doesn't support Brexit unconditionally. King tries very hard to talk about ways to make Brexit successful & not a disaster, rather than ever saying that it's inherently a good idea.

{To be sure, no coherent plan has ever been presented. There are arguments for remaining in the EU and arguments for leaving. But there is no case whatever for giving up the benefits of remaining without obtaining the benefits of leaving. Yet that is exactly what the government is now proposing. It simply beggars belief that a government could be hell-bent on a deal that hands over £39 billion, while giving the EU both the right to impose laws on the U.K. indefinitely and a veto on ending this state of fiefdom.}

A well argued case as you would expect, but missing a vital point that at the end of the WA period the UK would not be paying any more to the EU. The £39 Billion is payment for things already in progress, and up to the end of the transition date.
It is damn difficult to understand all the ramifications and BOTH sides of the discussion have to be up to speed with what is being discussed. The same goes for the reporting as well. Unless there are full transcripts presented, any editing may easily distort the truth.

Jas. Personally, i like listening to historians

Andrew Roberts

Never heard of him but to compare the French revolution to Brexit or call Farage a "man of the people" is stretching it beyond credibility.

But yes ignoring people's concerns always lead to disaster...... and disaster is where we are heading.

Larry Elliot Economics Editor Guardian

onomic dynamism

The unwarranted gloom about the UK and the exaggerated respect for the EU are not new. Many of those who now say that Britain must stay as closely aligned to the EU as possible predicted disaster when the pound left the exchange rate mechanism in 1992; prophesied a decade later that Britain would rue the day that Gordon Brown gave the single currency a wide berth; and said with the utmost confidence in 2016 that a vote forBrexitwould lead to an immediate and deep recession and a massive increase in unemployment. None of these things happened.

For the UK to prosper, or even lower bar than that simply survive, the UK government have to stop acting like 2 dogs chasing each other's tails round and round.
Despite the horribleness Hitler had a grand plan of where he wanted Germany to be, and he and his select band planned how they were going to do it.
If you don't have a plan and routemap you will never arrive where you want.
Brexit is a random 'wishlist' with many 'desires' totally at odds with others so are mutually exclusive. NO ONE can have 'Brexit' because some want a green one and some want a red one, it can't be both colours.

Not sure what you're saying. Its not often people praise Hitler's planning skills.

Back to Larry Elliot the Guardian's Economics Editor, this is interesting:

www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/08/its-not-brexit-britain-most-likely-to-suffer-recession-its-germany