Why is a second referendum undemocratic?

[MotherOfDragons90]

I genuinely don’t understand.

By the same logic we shouldn’t have general elections every 4 years because the people have already voted before.

I didn’t vote for a few reasons, I was on holiday but also couldn’t really make head nor tail of what the truth in amongst all the information being spread was. My close friend voted leave and would now vote remain.

So I don’t understand the argument that it isn’t democratic - if it’s still what The People want, leave will win again? If they don’t it’s because it isn’t what the people want now they are in full position of the facts.

We don’t have a unified currency or an EU army. We get to decide this stuff - it’s not forced on us by the EU.

It's not undemocratic. I voted leave but would be happy to have another referendum. I'd still vote leave but if others want another referendum doesn't bother me either way. 🤷🏻‍♀️

A second vote on the outcome of the negotiations would not be undemocratic at all. It is a nuanced version of the original question.

Whether it would be a sensible thing to do is another matter. Given the things I have read and heard recently, 90% of people still don't have a clue about what the EU is for and the consequences of leaving.

I certainly don't think a vote offering the choice between TM's deal and Remain would be undemocratic, how can offering people the chance to vote ever be undemocratic?

I signed the petitions for People's Vote and Final Say, but it is not really my preferred option. I think when TM's deal is voted down, MPs should do what they are paid for - exercise their own good judgement about what is best for the country. Any kind of brexit would cause untold damage and a "no deal" brexit would utterly destroy the future of our children and grandchildren. Most MPs know that remaining in the EU is the best option.

If they wanted to extend Article 50 it would require the permission of all EU27 countries and they would not give permission without good reason and then only for a short time, definitely not beyond the next EU Parliament elections in early summer. So the answer is to Revoke Article 50, which we can do unilaterally.

I voted leave and would vote leave again, I don't think it's unreasonable to have a vote on the outcome of negotiations regarding the "deal". I think you'd have to make it a "no deal - out", WA, or revoke, with a ranking for your vote on each option.

{A second vote on the outcome of the negotiations would not be undemocratic at all. It is a nuanced version of the original question.

Whether it would be a sensible thing to do is another matter. Given the things I have read and heard recently, 90% of people still don't have a clue about what the EU is for and the consequences of leaving.}
The biggest issue with this is politicians either lying, or being economical with the truth.
Yes using some of the WTO rules could be good for the UK.
BUT, and it is a massive but, there will be 10 or more years of massive tariffs, no guarantees of getting 'better' deals than we already have.
By the time negotiations are done, the world will be 10 years further on. How much has it changed in 10 years. What was your mobile phone like 10 years ago compared to now?

But why have another vote?

I don’t understand.

I do actually; let’s keep having another referendum until we get the result WE want. Never mind democratically what the 17.4 million people voted for first time round.

I voted leave last time and I would vote leave again. Every. Time.

My view is that the government has every right to say "we notified the EU, we came up with a deal, but it won't work and parliament has rejected it, so we are staying in the EU".

I think we should have done this a long time ago

I do actually; let’s keep having another referendum until we get the result WE want. Never mind democratically what the 17.4 million people voted for first time round.

It's not about getting the result that remainers want necessarily, it's about going back to the people and asking if this is still what they want now that more information is known. If the result is still leave, then Leavers have nothing to worry about.

I completely understand that some people don't see the need for it, but there are a lot of people who are now of voting age who Brexit will directly affect who probably want to have their say.

I'm on the fence a bit personally. I voted remain and would do so again, just because I do not see the positives to leaving myself, BUT I do think it will cause uproar if the result of the 2nd referendum were remain.

I don't think it's undemocratic to ask again. I don't think it's going to happen though.

May's WA does basically fulfill the criteria for leaving. It's a terrible deal but it's still closer to what was promised than a no deal. I don't think anyone who calls for no deal should be taken seriously- and they certainly shouldn't criticize Remainers for wanting a second vote. It's no more hypocritical than what they are doing.

{The only thing that we have discovered since 2016 and the vote is that it is nigh on impossible to untangle ourselves from the EU in a way which means we do not inflict hardship on our country.}

Given time effort and thought it could have been done in a civilised and 'smooth' fashion.
However, once 'out' you need to look at where the UK would go next. It it totally delusional to think a small island with limited natural resources can become a 'superpower' again, so it will always have to hang on to a bigger power. Main choices are USA, Russia or China.
Which would you prefer? Bear in mind that the UK would be treated as one of the American states, and not as an equal partner with a desk at the White House.
This is not being defeatist, it is being realistic. The UK on it's own simply isn't that big.

BUT I do think it will cause uproar if the result of the 2nd referendum were remain.
I think it could go two ways. Leave wins again and then there really won’t be any coming back from leaving the EU. Remind wins this time (which is a possibility as things were so close last time) and it could cause MASSIVE problems
That’s why I have big reservations about a second referendum. Yes things have changed, people are now aware of the options available when leaving the EU as well as the consequences.
The fact the government has been shit doesn’t help either (see the fact it has been in contempt of the HoC etc...).
But there will still lots of people who will fell disfrenchised and ressentful if he uk ends up not leaving for example.
How to handle that or even better PREVENT it should be considered too.

OP, you didn't vote last time so would you vote if there was another referendum?
I don't see that there is much of a change of heart from people who voted previously, some retainers would now vote leave ano some leavers would vote remain but it's not a huge swing either way. What I do see is people who didn't vote in 2016, possibly because they thought the result was a foregone conclusion, now saying they'd vote remain.

*remainers obviously

*Sugarhunnyicedtea we need to take into account the amount of new voters and those who voted in the last election who have passed away. The general consensus was that younger voters tended to vote remain and older voters tended to vote leave, so this could be where the swing in votes could lie...

It could make a difference, but there will also be a large number of people who 'couldn't be bothered' before who will now vote because it didn't go the way they expected.

Because we havent yet exercised the decision of the first referendum...thats why its undemocratic.... we havent left. You could vote again in 10 years time for example to reapply to join again .
If we had another referendum before leaving and remained, could we in theory then call a referendum every time the EU signed up another country or implemented a new piece of legislation?

If we had a GE and then the winning party didn't form a government for nearly three years, it would be entirely reasonable and democratic to have another GE.
Another referendum would be a different question to the original, now that a deal is on the table.

I'm not sure whether it is the right thing to do though. Even though I hope I would get what I want (Remain), it is unlikely to be a landslide decision so this uncertainty & conflict would perpetuate.

When we have a general election we allow a government to form and govern before voting again.

It's undemocratic because if you compare it to a general election vote:

In a general election the people are given the chance to vote in a government for 4 years. Whoever "wins" the vote is then the government. Everyone knows in advance that there will be another vote at the end of the term if not before.

So there is a direct consequence of the result of the population's vote and what is carried out.

The referendum gave people a choice and the outcome of that, to leave the EU, hasn't yet been delivered. So having another vote and hoping for another outcome invalidates democracy because leavers could argue "we need another vote" if the result is then "to remain".

It's the equivalent of labour winning a general election and a couple of weeks later the conservatives putting the pressure on and asking for another general election before the term has even really started, and then continuous general elections with none of the outcomes respected.

Interesting result in the Polls yesterday (Kantar);
If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?

Remain 35%
Leave 44%
Don't know/undecided 21%

whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/

to leave the EU, hasn't yet been delivered. So having another vote and hoping for another outcome invalidates democracy because leavers could argue "we need another vote" if the result is then "to remain".

Big difference between a GE and this decision via referendum.

a: leaving the EU is irreversible, certainly not within a generation, with huge consequence if we get it wrong, so we must be 110% sure its the correct action.

b: when i was last balloted to go on strike, we said OUT, the union went back to the employer, renegotiated, presented us with another deal and we voted to accept the new offer.... this is no different, we've an different offer from that sold to us in 2016, so why not see if we support it or not?

c: Governments are accountable, these 17m leave voters are not.

I do understand the probable demands for another vote though, which is why i support Parliament deciding now, based on their knowledge and their accountability, i want a revocation, however, if they go for her deal or no-deal, they will have to answer for what they choose at the next GE.