Westministenders: BAH HUMBUG said Mr Rees-Mogg

[RedToothBrush]

"At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge Rees-Mogg, ... it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons hostels?"

"Plenty of prisons hostels..."

"And the Union workhouses foodbanks." demanded Scrooge Jacob. "Are they still in operation?"

"Both very busy, sir..."

"Those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge ^Rees-Mogg, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

He continued "Besides I do not believe that anyone would die without them. I think Theresa is right, there are many complex reasons why nurses go to food banks. The real reason for the rise in numbers is that people know that they are there and Labour deliberately didn't tell them. To have charitable support given by people voluntarily to support their fellow citizens I think is rather uplifting and shows what a good, compassionate country we are"

------------------------

This thread is dedicated to Mrs8 and anyone else who is working to make life just a little better in the difficult circumstances that ALL politicians are currently doing their best to ignore (despite what they profess).

No Deal = even more poverty and destitution.

MERRY CHRISTMAS & HERES HOPING FOR A HAPPIER NEW YEAR
especially to those of you, who might be having a tough time or facing real uncertainity.

Would help if they used text colours that you can actually read on that background! Distinct lack of clarity.

It depends whether you think immigration was the key motivation for Leave

• which many Leavers keep insisting was not the case

because FOM seems the main roadblock to staying in the SM

Many prominent Leave politicians were suggesting a Norway-type Brexit before the Ref:

Farage, Boris, Own Patterson, DD, Hannan ....

Boris still seems in favour of immigration, as far as one can tell with such a twisty bugger

iirc, One of them proclaimed "only an idiot would leave the Single Market"

Daniel Hannan " I repeat, absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market"

Ône problem all along is that Leavers - and some Remainers - expect the EU to significantly change its SM,
or even completely change what the EU is - reportedly Cameron wanted this

All for what is soon to be a 3rd country.

If the UK couldn't achieve those EU changes as a member, what made them think it could as a 3rd country ?

and without membership of the SM, trade is never going to be completely frictionless
Even in the SM, it would also need a CU / CA at least, for that

The WA is the closest attempt, with a CU and copying over all the main trade regs & standards from the SM
it won't be frictionless, but might be near enough to save JIT for most firms

The main problem, of course, is that Leavers contain people with very different aims & principles

• hard left, hard right, angry left behinds, English / UK nationalists, xenophobes, those wanting more immigration from non-EU countries .... -

and the Leave campaign promised they'd all get what they want

So, the Brexit that most nearly avoids everyone's red lines is a blank sheet of paper, hence No Deal

Jo Maugham QC@JolyonMaugham

What happens to Remain voters who switched to support Labour, including those who switched from the Tories,
after Corbyn ushers through Brexit?

You think they'll stick around?
Delusion level: stratospheric.

.....

SNP Westminster leader, Ian Blackford, called Corbyn:

“the midwife to the delivery of the [Tories’] Brexit plans”.

“Jeremy Corbyn has finally come off the fence he’s been sat on for the past two years
But unfathomably he’s come down on the same side as Theresa May.

The Labour party is incapable of providing opposition to the worst UK government that most people can remember.”

What happens to Remain voters who switched to support Labour, including those who switched from the Tories,

Well this one won't vote Labour. Danger of a Conservative taking back Edgbaston then. Bit of a shame, as our (new) MP is bloody good at her job. But presumably pro-Brexit Corbyn doesn't want a British Sikh hanging around to spoil his new fascination with Leavers.

Nudged by this thread, emails sent via Writetothem, and Labour Party contact form.

For myself, I'm not bothered about voting LibDem. But I suspect we could see a Tory back here to complete the retro feel.

{“the midwife to the delivery of the [Tories’] Brexit plans”.}
Apologies for dropping the tone a lot but a weird 'fact' that reading these threads inspired me to look up a couple of weeks back was that the 'inventor' of the gas Zyklon B was a German Jewish chemist.

We Citizens of Nowhere could make quite a difference, if Corbyn sticks to his guns
but most likely âfter Brexit is resolved, one way or the other
and NO, I won't forget or forgive Corbyn

A GE before Brexit looks unlikely, unless the WA passes and hence the DUP votes NC in the govt

With Corbyn supporting Brexit, there seems little chance of the HoC passing an amendment to Revoke

Also, imo, the EU are unlikely to extend A50 for a GE, with both main parties supporting Brexit

Corbyn might support / tolerate an amendment to rule out No Deal

However, that just leaves the WA, or possibly a PV
Otherwise No Deal would happen automatically

Surely a PV is ONLY a mechanism for the UK to decide which of the ONLY 3 options it wants to take, Remain/WA /crash?

Drone suspects released with no charges against them, OK that 's 2 eliminated, that only leaves the other 60 Million to check.

{A DfT spokesman added: "The drones at Gatwick have been flown illegally. The government changed the law this year to make it illegal to fly drones within 1,000m of an airport or above 400ft. The law couldn't be any more clear."}
Obviously thionking that policing is like it was presented in the era of 'Dixon of Dock Green', Plucky bobby blows whistle and the 'criminal' stands still and puts his hands up and confesses.

teaandbuscuits
Fullfact is a good place to start on your MP's assertions

and then I find reductionism works well
eg Rees Mogg claiming that tariffs are so high on Chinese goods that they are not imported gets killed dead by "which goods"

LeClerc Yes, a PV is only to let voters chose among the 3 available options if the politicians can't

• or 2 options if the govt / HoC decides to only allow these

Can't wait for Jasjas to tell us, once again, how great Corbyn is.

I respect the faith / wish of jas and any other loyal Labour supporter
I just don't share that faith or their beliefs.

However a responsive EU could have looked at flexing the letter of the rules in the way proposed by DC to allow them to operate in the same way they do in other countries.

There is a weird conviction, among brexiters who have never lived in Europe, and also some remainers, that "other countries do it better" when it comes to welfare systems and free movement.

In my experience here in France, it is perfectly possible to pitch up and claim benefits and this is exactly what many Britons do. In rural areas of France, I would guess that at least 9 out of 10 British families are net recipients of social security, as the vast majority are either unemployed, in precarious self-employment, or in minimum wage service sector jobs (bar work etc). Because most rural Brits in France are either pensioners or young families, very few are net contributors.

In fact, free movement rules are framed very broadly and it's surprisingly difficult for countries to refuse to accept people into their social security systems. For example, a few years ago there was a panic about the French healthcare system refusing to cover early retirees from the UK, because they were not pensioners but also not active. The French government had to relent.

Likewise people trot out "deportations" by the Belgians - deportations which seem in fact not to occur (if you think about this for 30 seconds you will understand why deporting someone inside the Schengen area might not be very effective). Simon Cox on Twitter has more on this (he thinks that the British did in fact do almost everything they could to restrict social security to EU immigrants). Of course in the British context this is largely irrelevant because EU immigrants are overwhelmingly in work.

There are some differences between the UK and some other EU countries with regard to unemployment insurance, but that's because the UK doesn't really have unemployment insurance, just a very basic safety net (whereas here in France I pay a large sum into my insurance every month and if my job disappears due to brexit I'll get up to 80% of my salary for a period of time).

There is no point looking at a set of rules which could have applied had the UK completely reconstructed itself.

Surely restructuring the UK's system of monitoring EU migration would be a darn sight easier and cheaper than Brexit?!

On the subject of Corbyn, my Facebook feed is as you'd expect quite left leaning. Going back a couple of years, I'd have said it was overwhelmingly pro magic grandpa. I can think of just one friend, a lifelong Labour Party member I hasten to add, who was virulently and presciently anti-Corbyn.

Over the last two years that has really changed. People were disappointed by the party's approach to Brexit but it was the issues with anti-semitism that were the most damaging among the ordinary educated Labour voter. The guardian interview is probably another nail in the coffin but I think that the damage was mostly already done. The difference is that this time it seems to also be hardcore lifelong labour campaigners who are jumping ship. How do you run an election campaign if your base is pissed off?

^I respect the faith / wish of jas and any other loyal Labour supporter
I just don't share that faith or their beliefs.^

Since the 2017 GE, I've repeated sounded a note of caution about the JezzaMessiah complex some had. Seems my distrust was justified.

... and frankly, if he's expecting red rosette loyalty to triumph over what's better for the UK then he is no different to Theresa May and her Tories.

How do you run an election campaign if your base is pissed off?

Has that been a problem for Labour in the past ?

John Rentoul's predictions:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-second-referendum-peoples-vote-labour-theresa-may-john-mcdonnell-a8696111.html?amp&&^twitterer_impression=truee^
^
Again and again, Corbyn’s true colours show through, but people see in him what they want to see,
and he has been surprisingly adept at the ambiguity needed 🤔 to keep the show on the road.
....
And John McDonnelll^, the shadow chancellor seen by some as more flexible than Corbyn about a referendum,
told The Times todayay^ that the party’s overwhelmingly pro-EU members wouldn’t get to decide*
...
parliament will probably vote on various options and against them all:^
^
a no-deal Brexit; a Norway Plus option (although that is essentially the same as May’s deal in that it would involve a similar withdrawal agreement with the same guarantee of an open border in Ireland); and a referendum.

Then parliament would be left with a choice between leaving without a deal and going back to May’s deal.

The House of Commons can pass non-binding motions saying how much it disapproves of a no-deal Brexit,
but unless it votes for the deal it cannot stop it^
^
The only other option is to delay Brexit, which could only be for a few weeks to complete legislation to implement the deal,
or for longer for a referendum, which Corbyn seems determined to avoid.^
....^
the prime minister will make the House of Commons vote, and vote again,
until enough Labour MPs have either voted or abstained to allow her deal to be ratified.

Then the DUP might vote with Labour to try to force a general election,
< risking losing 2-3 of their MPs and making Corbyn PM - even though he has always supported Sinn Fein and a Reunited Ireland >
and May would need maybe just one or two Labour MPs – or former Labour MPs, of whom there are five in the Commons
.....
The constitutional crisis is only just beginning

{There is no point looking at a set of rules which could have applied had the UK completely reconstructed itself.

Surely restructuring the UK's system of monitoring EU migration would be a darn sight easier and cheaper than Brexit?!}

In fact it makes a complete mockery of 'security' if the government has no joined up strategy to know who is in the UK and approximately where they are.

I have a goodly collection of Corbynite friends
I have been warning them for years that he was anti EU
they did not believe me.
I think they do now
but its not like there are any good options for the country

Can't wait for Jasjas to tell us, once again, how great Corbyn is

He is an idiot and i ve said so many times...... however, where i defend him is remainers expecting him or Labour to be able to put things back to where they were, you all seem to think he is in power!

He cannot stop Brexit (even if he wanted too) he can't depose of a May/Tory government, he will never get a fair press e.g him mouthing stupid woman (or people) that became the lead story across all the media, nothing about Mays incompetence and no-deal plans.

He is despised so much within the Tory ranks that even (by some miracle) if he came down on the Soubry side of Brexit, no Tory MP inc Soubry would vote for any JC amendment or policy.
also, he can never win a NC motion in the Government so will never get his GE, esp as he'd need to win it twice due to the changes DC bought in...forget the DUP ever voting against the Tories.

If you want scapegoats look at all the remainers (many on MN & these brexit forums) who voted tory in 2015, knowing full well they had a EU referendum in their manifesto.... Labour had no such policy, yet still you all voted Tory.

LeClerc
In fact it makes a complete mockery of 'security' if the government has no joined up strategy to know who is in the UK and approximately where they are.
But the UK has never had a system for Non EU migrants.

I lived here for decades on ILR status.
When La May became home secretary she decided to abolish ILR and bring in ten year visas
that being illegal passed her by
she was asked how many people were in the UK on ILR
bearing in mind it can only be issued by a customs official at the border
her guess to the House of Commons was around 250,000
the US embassy confirmed that it had more than that number of registered voters in the UK
The UK has absolutely no idea how many forriners are here
especially forriners who are here legally and stay put
Windrush anybody

La May said that thousands of students were overstaying their visas
then the UKBF started checking
and it was less than 50 a year
The UK has no idea how many non Brits are here and whether they are legal