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Brexit
Original poster

Second Referendum

252 replies

MyNameIsArthur · 15/12/2018 09:37

If there was a second referendum, how would you phrase the question on the ballot paper? I thought maybe it should be phrased in the following way in two parts but I'm not sure. What do you think?

A) Do you wish for the UK to Remain in the EU or to leave the EU ?

B) If the majority of the UK votes to leave the EU, do you wish for the UK to leave with:

                    1         Theresa May's deal
                    2          No deal
OP posts:
PeridotCricket · 16/12/2018 21:12

marush look up the IEA not exactly a dispassionate group...

The Institute of Economic Affairs is a non-profit, free market think tank based in Westminster, London, United Kingdom. Founded by businessman and battery farming pioneer Antony Fisher in 1955, it promotes free market economics. Wikipedia

Neweternal · 16/12/2018 21:45

Let's face it though, not many leave voters demanding another Brexit vote, telling everyone they were lied to. It's the remainers that want it and telling us we were lied to. I did not for one second think it would be easy but I did think it was worth it. What I am surprised at is how remainers have tried to sabotage leaving. The only difference for me next leave vote (If they have it) is I will probably donate towards the campaign.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 21:50

IEA lists Patrick Minford as something in the setup, I forget what now. The guy being 'interviewed by Farage was one of them.
So Farage who is betting on a collapse is being 'interviewed' by one of his mates.

Moussemoose · 16/12/2018 21:54

Opposition is vital to democracy. That is why we have 'The Official Opposition'.

Brexit supporters claimed to be wedded to democracy but fail to understand its basic tenets.

Opposition to Brexit is vital, that is how legislation is tested and scrutinised.

The opposition needs to be rebuffed with logic and reason and well though out arguments. The issue is Brexit supporters can not do that. The policy is being tested and scrutinised and it is failing to pass the tests that democracy demands.

Brexit is failing, that is not the fault of the opposition, it is a poorly though out badly planned policy. It deserves to fail.

1tisILeClerc · 16/12/2018 21:59

So, Even if Farage and his mates are nearly right but add in the reality that trade deals take many years to set up, what is the plan for the next 5 years or so while industry and a significant chunk of finance disappear to the EU?
Holding your breath and eating grass isn't going to work.
Oh by the way, importing significant quantities of food from Africa etc won't work, there are many starving over there already, which suggests there is not that much food about.
Rather than saying 'remainers' are wrong, how about telling those that want to remain how this brave new world is going to work. There must be a few plans that have been suggested in over 2 years.
Farage, Mogg and the ERG are fine, they are all set up to gain hundreds of millions so a bit of a price hike won't exactly bother them.

kalidasa · 16/12/2018 22:13

neweternal I voted Leave too, I sometimes read these threads but I don't post for obvious reasons! I'm sure there are quite a few of us.

Moussemoose · 16/12/2018 22:17

So kalidasa having read these threads what do you think we should do with the GFA. If you vote for something that causes an issue, and I assume you have read and researched your answer would be...?

Neweternal · 16/12/2018 22:24

@Moussemoose who's going to put up this border? Ireland don't want neither do the Republic. So is some phantom government going to put it up?

Maursh · 16/12/2018 22:29

Where to start....
@bellinisurge
I suggest you actually read the GFA because nowhere does it say "no border"

@ 1tisILeClerc
LBC is a commercial radio station regulated by Ofcom. 15mins of interview was followed by 15mins of questions by listener phone in. If you believe that there was an attempt to deceive the public then you should make a report to Ofcom.
The World Bank disagrees with you about Africa
How are Farage, Mogg and the ERG set up to gain hundreds of millions out of Brexit?
Where do I say 'remainers' are wrong?

@WiseUpJanetWeiss @PeridotCricket @GD12
You have expressed outrage about the IEA. Was there something in the message that you believe to be incorrect or misleading. Did any of you to listen to it? Do you know so much already that you have nothing to learn? I spent a good deal of time listening and pulling apart “three guys in a pub” tape – do you think that I shouldn’t have bothered to hear what he had to say because my political views differ?

Moussemoose · 16/12/2018 22:29

I really have no answer to the issue with the GFA that's one of the reasons why I voted remain.

There is no way a boarder can be put up but it would be illegal not to have one. The technology doesn't exist and the politics are intractable.

After centuries of conflict and misery we have a patched together solution. Putting the peace at risk is foolhardy and risks lives. So I voted remain.

The people who voted for change, who voted for Brexit are the ones who need to come up with a solution. I'm still waiting for answers.

GD12 · 16/12/2018 22:34

Maursh, I agree with you that the 3 blokes video is incorrect. I would however point you to @CoppetainPU @DmitryOpines @StevePeers and research their credentials and what they have to say.

noblegiraffe · 16/12/2018 22:34

If the GFA issue is such a piece of piss to resolve, then why is there all this fannying around with a backstop?

Neweternal · 16/12/2018 22:36

@noblegiraffe simple leverage for the remainers

Maursh · 16/12/2018 22:36

@moussemoose
I really have no answer to the issue with the GFA that's one of the reasons why I voted remain.
What is the issue with the GFA?

There is no way a boarder can be put up but it would be illegal not to have one.
Who says that it would be illegal not to have one?

Maursh · 16/12/2018 22:39

@noblegiraffe
There is an article in the spectator which goes some way to explaining why the border issue arose.

Moussemoose · 16/12/2018 22:42

As a leave voter I assume you have researched and looked into your vote. I assume you carefully considered all the issues and so don't really need me to explain the complexity of the GFA.

Personally, I find the intricacies of Irish and Northern Irish politics a bit complex. The troubles and the previous 800 years of oppression seemed to be creeping towards a close I thought that was a good thing and worth preserving.

Maursh · 16/12/2018 22:44

I will look them up @GD12

Moussemoose · 16/12/2018 22:46

Good article in the Spectator.

That’s why Brexit causes such Irish unease now. It renews the gnawing sense that Ireland is yet again set to suffer from the seemingly thoughtless, oppressive actions of its much bigger neighbour

You can see why the Irish are concerned when it is explained like that.

After 800 years of oppression we do kind of owe the Irish a bit of peace. Also, British politicians like Priti Patel suggesting we starve the Irish into submission is not going to help relations is it?

Priti is a big Brexit supporter btw.

SaltySeaBird · 16/12/2018 22:57

You can’t have two leave options and one remain as it splits the leave voters and therefore favours remain.

PART A - Of the current options:

  1. Brexit with TM deal
  2. Brexit with no deal
  3. Re-vote on Brexit

PART B - If option 3 is found to be the majority vote by xx%

  1. Remain
  2. Leave with the majority vote option 1 or 2 in Part A
SaltySeaBird · 16/12/2018 22:58

I am a remain voter and would welcome a second referendum although don’t think it will happen

GD12 · 16/12/2018 23:03

The Good Friday Agreement is made up of two parts – the Multi-party agreement between most of the political parties (but not the DUP) and the British-Irish Agreement between the two governments.

This second Agreement is the international treaty between sovereign states, registered with the UN. The British-Irish Agreement’s function is to uphold the multi-party agreement. So changing the treaty would logically require a new multi-party agreement.

…

In terms of Brexit impact Strand 2 is most significant. It sets out that the North-South Ministerial Council, which promotes all-island cooperation, will “consider the European Union dimension of relevant matters, including the implementation of EU policies and programmes…”

…

Article 27 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, states: “A party may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty.” So Britain cannot, under international law, set aside the GFA because it voted for Brexit.

So the “peace dividend” disappears and work on community regeneration and reconciliation loses funding just at the time a hard border becomes a very real possibility.

…

Also at risk the Special EU Programmes Body which was one of the North-South implementation bodies set up under the GFA and delivery agent for the EU Programme for Peace and Reconciliation in the north. No EU, No SEUPB. No money.

…

when a 20 year process which has allowed people to begin to express their identity, culture and tradition is eroded, then you undermine the process of peace.

The workability of the Good Friday Agreement is as much about what it signifies as what it says. It signifies compromise, recognition and acceptance and a pledge to work together for the common good.

Exactly the opposite of what a hard border does, in fact.

noblegiraffe · 16/12/2018 23:04

This raised an eyebrow in the Spectator article “Yet by wildly over-playing his hand, teaming up with Brussels”

What’s that? The Republic Of Ireland benefits from membership of a much larger bloc when it comes to power in negotiations?

madeyemoodysmum · 16/12/2018 23:10

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46585237

I believe the away are hanging on by a thread

Riots in France
Merkel clinging for dear life
Italy are unhappy
Riots in Brussels
Netherlands watching us closely
Other EU members in a state of near bankruptcy

It’s pretty much over. I want out before that happens.

GD12 · 16/12/2018 23:16

It wouldn't be "illegal" not to have a hard border under WTO however, it would set the UK up to have disputes and real problems under WTO MFN rules
tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2018/07/18/does-the-wto-require-countries-to-control-their-borders/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
In fact, JRM posted an article (perhaps unwittingly) outlining why...

twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1068215811695935488?s=19