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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

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1tisILeClerc · 09/12/2018 19:30

I suppose London can think itself lucky for the moment. The 'scrap' in Paris by the 'GJ takeover party' managed to get 1200 members arrested.
Having 90,000 police/army personnel on the case. Isn't the British army only capable of mustering 82,000 or that sort of order?

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 09/12/2018 19:35

Brexit lies unchallenged on BBC again:
On that twitter thread Rosindell said he was including internal trade in that, but then also sort of admitted he didn't actually have the figures to back up his assertion.
If that is remotely true, its bloody misleading in the context it was given. Purposely I'd say.

frumpety · 09/12/2018 19:46

Plonky the thing that struck me most about that little piece you linked to by Dr Gudgins , was that it he had basically used all the arguments Remainers have used in the past, against them, not altogether original, wonder if he wanders these threads looking for inspiration ?

Niles the problem with blaming mass immigration for keeping nurses wages down , is why are there so many vacancies in nursing within the NHS, if you as a senior nurse are working in an environment that is fully staffed, you are indeed blessed. Smile

Grinchly · 09/12/2018 20:01

( head in hands)
Why, why WHY is Labour so ineffectual ( rhetorical q)
Lucas great as ever.
But I still hugely worry what a second vote would produce - in terms of the result and everything else.

borntobequiet · 09/12/2018 20:13

I suppose teachers’ pay is not going up because of all those immigrant teachers...

umpteennamechanges · 09/12/2018 20:20

Don't know if anyone's shared this already....Gollum actor Andy Serkis playing Theresa May Grin

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/my-precious-agreement-gollum-actor-13709320?utmsource=twitter.com&utmmmedium=social&utmcampaign=sharebar

LucheroTena · 09/12/2018 20:29

Because less and less young UK people want to be nurses frumpety. And who can blame them when the wages and conditions are shit? I work in central London and our vacancy rate is as high as anywhere else. The usual reaction to that is import more. If we stop importing there isn’t going to be a backfill from the U.K. as people understandably don’t want to pay for their (very time intensive) training, to work in a crap job with crap pay. It’ll take years to reverse this trend.

TatianaLarina · 09/12/2018 20:46

But also the U.K. just don’t train enough nurses.

Nurse training places were cut by around 6,000 per year in the first years of the Coalition to just under 20,000 a year, to save money. But then the NHS has to shell out more to agencies. And it costs trusts something like 12 grand to recruit each foreign nurse.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/12/2018 20:51

Nearly everyone wants more nurses, with better pay
BUT
Not enough people will vote for higher taxes to pay for them

BigChocFrenzy · 09/12/2018 20:53

Or vote to stop supporting house prices, so nurses & other essential workers can afford decent housing

Talkinpeece · 09/12/2018 20:53

The UK has imported nurses to staff the NHS every year since 1948

Since the public sector pay freeze brought in by Osborne in 2010 the number of NHS vacancies has risen to 100,000

Under Theresa May's hostile environment non EU nurses stopped being able to get visas
so we became ultra reliant on the EU

BigChocFrenzy · 09/12/2018 21:30

iirc, the income requirement for immigrants has excluded some nurses, junior doctors and even some specialist doctors that the NHS head-hunted

Talkinpeece · 09/12/2018 21:39

BigChoc
Yup. The NHS recruited 75 Indian A&E doctors and the Home Office would not let them in

Arborea · 09/12/2018 21:58

The UK could be ruled by a dictator as ferocious as that of N Korea, but if as a dictator ALL citizens were treated well with jobs they were happy with, good healthcare, good housing and standard of living, would that not be better than a so called democracy such as the UK now where the 'ruling elite' are very happy to have beggars on the streets, especially if the can't see them on a day to day basis.

Sounds a bit like Brave New World: what's wrong with a highly stratified society where everyone knows their place? Some people just aren't grateful enough... Hmm

In reality, it doesn't sound like freedom to me. I'm sure there's another word for that type of society... No danks

BigChocFrenzy · 09/12/2018 22:01

Important Events Monday

  • 8am ECJ deliver verdict on A50 revocation

  • 2pm Royal Courts of Justice deliver decision on Application for Judicial Review Hearing on illegalities during Eu referendum

Important Events Tuesday

  • HoC vote on the WA
  • how big a defeat for May ?
  • Tory MPs may try again - harder - to remove her
1tisILeClerc · 09/12/2018 22:08

My comment was only really that a dictator does not HAVE to be bad, and that democracy is not universally good.
We have seen however the 'democracy' in action in the UK where the people voted, then the government 'interpreted' it to mean what they want it to mean (in many different almost contradictory forms) and now 'dictator' May is handbagging all into submission. Her 'vision' of the mysterious 'Brexit beast' is like no one else's.
She hasn't got as far as putting dissenters into a field and firing a rocket launcher at them yet.

bellinisurge · 09/12/2018 22:17

@1tisILeClerc . All dictators are bad. I've lived under them.
To paraphrase a Leaver's fave Churchill, democracy is the worst system of government apart from all the others.

Moussemoose · 09/12/2018 22:31

Not all dictatorships are bad for all the people.

Look at Saudi Arabia a nightmare of a country for some. However, a recent thread about expats living there was full of people saying how lovely it was. I was told off for ruining their fun by pointing out the KSA regularly publicly executes children.

People chose to live in that particular dictatorship because of the big piles of cash they get.

Some people will ignore freedom, civil rights and basic human rights for others if they get a big enough payout.

Icantreachthepretzels · 09/12/2018 23:21

For anyone who wants to do something before Tuesday's vote the lib dems have an exit from brexit petition that they want 200 000 people to sign before Tuesday - please sign and share. (I'd put a link - but having signed it I now can't back to the original page and the link I have includes all my personal details! but www.libdems.org.uk should get you there - then scroll down to the exit brexit bit.)

They have also identified 14 key conservative mps that they want to persuade to back a people's vote and have an email you can copy and paste to each of them. I'm not sure how persuadable any of them are - one of them is my own odious mp and I know he is an immovable rock on the subject. But still try, if you can spare the time.

Icantreachthepretzels · 09/12/2018 23:27

oh heck - I deliberately didn't make that a link and it's gone ahead and linked it anyway. Do we not need double brackets any more? I hope that just takes people to the general lib dem page and not to my lib dem page - it's still coming up with my details when I click on it.

Jason118 · 09/12/2018 23:35

@Icantreachthepretzels it's ok, you're safe Smile

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 09/12/2018 23:37

It looks like the general page Icant

Icantreachthepretzels · 09/12/2018 23:44

Thanks! phew! Smile

mathanxiety · 10/12/2018 00:12

Hesta
Peregrina Yet again you have a way of twisting words, I said that BSE at the time in the papers was going to be the biggest killer since the Spanish flu out break, it turned out to be rubbish

But the papers were right, Hesta. The BSE crisis was a real disaster and it could have been infinitely worse. It wasn't 'rubbish'.

The worst case scenario was averted because the government took drastic steps - 4.4 million cattle were slaughtered and burned (it was horrific) and there was rigorous investigation of the food chain by which the disease had been spread, and new regs introduced as a result. Even with a largely successful response, many mistakes were made as the government sought to come to grips with this threat to animal and human life and a huge sector of the economy.

The crisis was pretty much contained only because experts were listened to and the necessary action was taken most of the time. The fact that the crisis was contained does not mean the alarm was unwarranted or that it was some sort of boy crying wolf situation all along.

British beef (and lamb) could not be exported for years. Farmers initially only got 50% compensation for the loss of each cow.

www.newscientist.com/article/dn91-bse-disaster-the-history/ Article from 2000.

Even still, people who lived in the UK (and also Ireland) in the 80s cannot give blood anywhere outside of the UK and Ireland. This is how seriously the rest of the world still takes the threat.

In the case of Brexit, warnings are coming from all sectors of industry, local administration, health services, agriculture, transport and security on the likelihood of economic disaster, and the EU itself as well as individual EU countries have done studies and come up with their own projections.

All of the conclusions of these studies by governments, local authorities and industries/sectors converge, with all evidence pointing to 'leave with no deal' causing disaster for the UK.

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2018 01:02

1tisILeClerc

My comment was only really that a dictator does not HAVE to be bad, and that democracy is not universally good.

Whilst I accept the latter, please name a 'good dictator'.

They are only 'good for the people' if you are the 'right kind' of person who behaves and doesn't question things. (and even then it can be pretty miserable)

This is why democracy is currently failing because the deal is that life is generally OK in relative terms not just if you are the 'right kind of person' but also if you are the 'wrong kind' of person.

Because people can't see the benefits of democracy and underplay the horrors of dictatorships because they take their democratic privilege for granted a desire for 'getting things done' without having to do that lengthy, difficult and boring consultation and compromise thing arises.

It's depressing to see someone express the idea that 'dictators aren't that bad really' opinion on this thread. Yes, yes they fucking are and dominance of democracy has moderated their behaviour in many respects in recent times.

Democracy isn't perfect. It doesn't always work well for some, but if you think dictators are better you never have lived under one or you have way more privilege and protection from your social status than you realise.

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