If you believe in the democratic will of the people...

[HappyHugs]

...how do you square the UK wide Brexit referendum result which said one thing with the Ireland wide Good Friday referendum which diametrically conflicts. Why does/should the Brexit one take precedence (esp in NI)?
Genuinely interested in how ‘democrats’ balance the two.

To me it's the fact that there must have been both Unionists and Nationalists who voted Remain otherwise the result in NI would've been different. And yet, because of the last general election, the DUP get to through their weight around contrary to the will of the people of NI.
I wonder what would have happened if the Tories had won an outright majority. Would they have agreed to a border in the Irish Sea - which seems like the only sensible solution to me and could be a "best of both worlds " economic bonus to NI.

There definitely were remainers from both communities (and all of the counties that border RoI voted remain). And if TM hadn’t needed the DUP I don’t doubt for a second that the NI situation would already be resolved to NI’s massive economic advantage.

The question is really for all those people who say ‘deal with it’ ‘we voted, get over it’ etc. What do you say about that other referendum, that had all Ireland support, the GFA? Is your Brexit vote more important? And if so how can you justify that position?

could be a "best of both worlds " economic bonus to NI.

Why do you think this?

The backstop solves the border issue and preserves the GFA, but any non-EEA version of Brexit is damaging to both the Irish and northern Irish economies.

In the U.K. as parliament is sovereign parliament makes the decision that is the best for the country.

That may not be the direct will of the people.

The examples I always give are capital punishment and the legalisation on homosexuality - both happened when the majority of the public disagreed with the law. Parliament however, believed it was best for the country.

Democracy does NOT mean always doing what the majority want this can lead to the tyranny of the majority whereby a majority group can exploit minorities.

It is up to MPs to show leadership and do what is best....

NI would effectively remain in the Single market, with ability to trade equally with EU and GB, why would this not be advantageous?

@HappyHugs because much of Ireland's, and most of Northern Ireland's, trade is with mainland Britain!

Brexit increases trade friction with Ireland's/ NI's closest trading partner and also affects trade with mainland Europe because of the impact on the land bridge.

There are some opportunities, of course, but Brexit is still a great big economic "screw you" to the island of Ireland.

Land bridge = the route to continental Europe via the Welsh ports and then Dover-Calais. This is how much of Ireland's trade with continental Europe is shipped. Any non-EEA Brexit fucks this up.

I've had wine, this will be brief.

The people vote. The people decide. That's a result.

Much as I fucking disagree with it you can't re vote. It takes the core away from democracy.

Absolutely agree Brexit is a disaster for the Uk and Ireland. But if the backstop is offered it’s an awful lot better than not having it! I meant it would be advantageous against the alternative (not against the status quo!)

Ileclerc
So what of my GFA vote - Ireland voted, Ireland decided. Why should the Brexit vote get to supersede it?
Ps - have also had wine!

@HappyHugs put that way I absolutely agree with you!

But it's not the first time I've heard it said that with the backstop, brexit is an opportunity for Ireland, and this is absolutely wrong.

The backstop is mitigation but Ireland is still the most negatively-affected country by brexit (after the UK, obviously!).

Democracy as we know it at least isn’t the will of the people. It is a process. The uk constitution is based on the sovereignty of parliament and our system of democracy has developed in line with the need to square of parliamentary sovereignty with the rule of law, natural justice etc. In a nutshell the democratic process is such that ‘the people’ (vile phrase that it is, can’t we call them the voting population or something Less pitchforks and torches?) elect representatives. Once elected those representative vote on various laws etc which become endhirened as law via the process of becoming acts of parliament which the government then puts into practice. Referendums exist by virtue of parliaments decision to pass and act to make one take place essentially. Referendums, while politically binding, have no legal standing what so ever. You have to look at the source of power. In Britain no single body hold all the power (see separation of powers) but parliament is supreme and the laws of parliament are the laws of the land. The only power the people have is to vote in mos and exert political pressure. The people cannot change the law. The people cannot compelled the government to act. The notion that democracy is the will of the people is absurd. Democracy is the will of parliament.

You may well be correct Racecardriver, in which case you don’t hold the views of those I’m targeting with this question.

because the Brexit vote was nationwide, whereas GFA was only local - therefore, Brexit has more power and value

So an opinion poll has to trump an international treaty, you think, threetrees?

The 2016 Referendum was not an opinion poll.

The 2016 Referendum was an opinion poll - by virtue of saying specifically said that it was advisory in the legislation. In a Parliamentary democracy which we had (Freudian slip there) have, the legislation would have specified that a Bill would have needed to be laid before Parliament, for it to be non advisory.

So what of my GFA vote - Ireland voted, Ireland decided.

Sovereignty only matters when it is British sovereignty, OP. Brexit supporters are quite happy to throw around opinions like "Ireland should just leave the EU", forgetting the Ireland is a sovereign country with its own sovereign will.

In a connected world, sovereignty is vastly overrated anyway. Every time you agree to cooperate with another sovereign country you both trade away a little bit of your sovereignty, usually in a way that provides very little oversight for the "people". Trade blocs where the people get to vote not only for their national government but also for their representatives in trading bloc structures are rare. The EU might actually be the only example? There is zero representation for "the people" in FTAs like NAFTA or structures like the WTO.

The GFA was also nation wide - in Ireland. NI participated in 2 apparently conflicting nation wide referendums... so how do we prioritise that? (Note also that one of those two has the status of an international peace treaty lodged in the UN)

Just to be clear threetrees, are you contending that an all-British decision is more important than an all-Irish one?

The Brexit referendum was, as a matter of law, an opinion poll. And it was followed by making it "official " by triggering Article 50.

The 2016 Referendum was not an opinion poll.
Yes, it was.
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/r-miller-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-eu-amended-20161122.pdf#page=32
"Further, the 2015 Referendum Act was passed against a background including a clear briefing paper to parliamentarians explaining that the referendum would have advisory effect only. Moreover, Parliament must have appreciated that the referendum was intended only to be advisory as the result of a vote in the referendum in favour of leaving the European Union would inevitably leave for future decision many important questions relating to the legal implementation of the European Union."

Land bridge = the route to continental Europe via the Welsh ports and then Dover-Calais. This is how much of Ireland's trade with continental Europe is shipped. Any non-EEA Brexit fucks this up.

Indeed. But as the Irish are way ahead of the UK on this, they have of course already put some Brexit plans in place to mitigate this situation:
‘Brexit-busting’ ferry launched from Dublin Port
Hundreds attend christening of world’s largest short sea roll-on roll-off vessel

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-busting-ferry-launched-from-dublin-port-1.3468760

The journey from Ireland to the EU will take slightly longer, but if there is a No Deal Brexit, it avoids the trucks needing to go through four sets of customs controls (leaving Ireland - entering the UK - leaving the UK - entering France (or Holland or Belgium)) where delays are likely to be measured in days rather than hours.

It'll take a while for that ferry to be operational but ... excellent news. Hope it's a success.

I suppose an 'upside' will be the A55 will be clearer without the lorries on it. Other main truck routes were available.