Brexit and Scotland - is there a plan?

[Thomasinaa]

Looks like we're heading for a disastrous no deal Brexit. I am dreading what the right-wingers will then do to the UK. So for those of us who live in Scotland - what's the next step? Is there any real chance of independence and re-joining the EU?

Scotland is more left wing than England already, and England is now veering to the extreme right.

Why any Scots would want to split from England and Wales just to give up their self-government to Brussels is beyond me.

Nice goading attempt Wholly.....

My husband is a real traditionalist (not a big fan of the EU but voted remain mainly because he favours the status quo) and even he said the other week that he wonders if the UK has had its day and whether it's time for England, Wales, and Scotland to become independent states. He also thinks it would be economically stupid, but if he is seeing the political value in it, something is definitely changing.

It would really upset me for the UK to break up, although that's more GB - I have no issues about NI becoming part of Ireland and the people there should be able to decide their fate. The current non-government is ludicrous and something there clearly has to change.

So many Unionist myths and lies still being believed. :(

Scotland has a deficit because, as prettybird says, WM spend on our behalf. "National infrastructure" like HS2, London sewers and Cossrail, Trident... until very recently the Scottish Government wasn't allowed to borrow and had to balance the books every year. We are not subsidised by England, we're actually about the third largest contributor to the Treasury after London and the South East, and that's not counting the "origin unknown" oil and gas.

We would have no problem rejoining the EU as we are currently fully compliant, and there is no "queue" for us to get on the end if it. We can't join the Euro because we don't have our own currency to enter the Exhange Rate Mechanism, and if we establish our own currency (which would be a good idea, it would be mad to stay with Sterling while the £ plummets) it would be daft to give it up a couple of years later. Spain won't veto us because they want access to our fishing grounds (something like 80% of our catch goes to the EU, with Spain a major consumer) and would probably enjoy pissing off WM in response to their complete lack of thought and negotiations over Gibraltar - even less than the attention given to Northern Ireland.

I could go on, and on. In short, there is no reason at all for Scotland not to rejoin/remain in the EU (via the holding pen mentioned earlier) should that be what the people of an independent Scotland want. We just need to vote for it.

You might well find a population influx too, of English/Welsh who haven't got access to an EU passport decide to move to Scotland. I think I would seriously consider it.

I don't think the unproven allegations against Salmond will affect indyref. I don't think it would affect indyref even if he were to be found guilty. The Yes movement is genuinely grassroots and despite the best efforts of the unionist press, it's not the Alex Salmond fan club, nor does it have to be.

he wonders if the UK has had its day and whether it's time for England, Wales, and Scotland to become independent states.

Maybe there's some truth in this ? With the caveat that smaller countries are easier to bully. It's only really possible to be "United" if there's enough common ground. And if nothing else, the Brexit debate has shown that the UK contains some staggeringly disparate conditions and environments, and what's good for one part of the country is not only meaningless, but actively harmful to another part.

If dismantling the "union" were to become reality, I wonder how it might translate across the globe. There's a case to be made that the "United" States is anything but, and some states might be better off out . Although the precedents for that aren't too appealing .

On a certain level, brexit is actually the reverse of Empire 2.0 even though it is motivated to a certain extent by nostalgia for those days. If the trend of 'dis-unity' spreads to the rest of Europe we could end up with a map and power structures similar to those in the Middle Ages.

If the trend of 'dis-unity' spreads to the rest of Europe we could end up with a map and power structures similar to those in the Middle Ages.

I think there are dark forces abroad that want that to be a "will" not "could"

DGRossetti you said - 'what's good for one part of the country is not only meaningless but actively harmful to another' Can you give some examples please?

DGRossetti you said - 'what's good for one part of the country is not only meaningless but actively harmful to another' Can you give some examples please?

Off the top of my head, constantly investing in the South East, simply reinforces the divide between North and South (England). Which suggests the unity of England may prove transitory, and unsustainable.

And off the top of mine, HS2 (of which Scotland will pay about 8.4% as it's "national infrastructure") will take £220 million out of Aberdeen. (Ok, I googled to get the right number )

Other cities including Cambridge and Bristol will also lose because of HS2.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/19/hs2-cities-lose-millions-revealed

Another example I can think of is how macroeconomic policy is grated around the needs of London and the South East.

I can recall a time when the SE housing market was overheating so interest rates were put up/kept high - despite the fact that the rest of the UK was crying out for lower interest rates.

It's not so obvious now because the BoE tends to use Quantitative Easing rather than interest rates.

It is very telling that the spending on local infrastructure (roads, public transport etc) is about 5 times greater for the London area compared to 'the North'. There were specific details but I read them ages ago.
For the purposes of this comment the relevance is anywhere outside London and the SE gets a LOT less.

I think it’s easy.

Scotland goes independent. It rejoins the Eu, and adopts the euro. (As does NI)

Waves goodbye to England and Wales, as they sink down the plug hole of their own making.

@Totally
Yes reinstate Offa's Dyke and Hadrian's wall (seems like we have been here before somehow!).
The idea is great, but sadly not workable within the few months until 'B' day. I think the South West might be interested in staying in the EU too.
If it were only Westminster/Greater London that wanted to leave then we could simply put a wall up around the outside of the M25 and put all 'leavers' in there, but unfortunately the pattern of 'leaving' is too diverse.

Yes reinstate Offa's Dyke and Hadrian's wall

Manned with those foreign soldiers from Syria and Iraq ?

The South West voted to Leave, so I am not sure that would want to have a wall to keep them in the EU. London voted Remain, but this could be made a City State and allowed to stay in the EU.

We could then shift Parliament out to a strong Leave area - the building needs major work to bring it up to standard, so it would be a good opportunity.

Mebyon Kernow the cornish independence party is pro EU. I have always wanted us to stay as a union and I was pleased when Scotland voted to stay in. But brexit has changed everything. All our recent road and rail upgrades in my area of Cornwall has been part funded by the EU. The government give precisely no shits about Cornwall apart from the naice areas around Rock where they go on holiday.

I don't blame Scotland or Wales or NI for wondering whether staying in the UK is for them. We have seen MPs dismissing their concerns for years, brexit has magnified that.

Mebyon Kernow the cornish independence party is pro EU.

Trago Mills. 'nuff said .....

Apart from these being 'silly' suggestions, I have a horrible feeling that taken over a 20 year period it could be financially viable compared to what may be coming. Monetary terms only of course.
The fact the South West (and elsewhere) voted leave suggests the 'lies' told by the leave campaign were effective as if I am correct, a significant part of the regeneration money came from the EU and not Westminster.
Syrian and Iraqi 'peace keepers' on Hadrian's wall and Offa's dyke, a bit of a turn around. I suppose it would boost the 'woolly jumper' industry.

Any more of this 'banter' and we risk making a better plan than Westminster.

Syrian and Iraqi 'peace keepers' on Hadrian's wall and Offa's dyke, a bit of a turn around.

No, a return to how it used to be:

www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/jul/15/britishidentity.charlottehiggins

While British soldiers battle it out in Iraq, spare a thought for this: troops from Iraq once occupied Britain. A unit of Iraqis, probably from the Basra region, formed part of the Roman troops defending the empire from incursions at its northernmost border, Hadrian's Wall.

A Roman document from about AD400 called the Notitia Dignitatum - a list of all the military and civil posts of the empire - refers to an irregular unit of "bargemen from the Tigris", based at Arbeia, the fort nearest modern South Shields.

(contd)

Isotope analysis on buried remains confirms this. Roman SOP would have encouraged settling down with "the natives" ....

(can't speak of Offas Dyke)

I was sort of aware of the Hadrian's situation but didn't want to make the post so long as it is quite off topic.
Speaking of which, Crossrail is to go back a year because they are short of electricians etc. Maybe there are some folk in Poland or Germany who could lend a hand.....