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Brexit

Westministenders: High Drama at The Ok Coral

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/07/2018 22:38

3:00 p.m. Wednesday, October 26, 1881, Tombstone, Arizona.

After months of death threats from the Cowboy Billys, their long simmering feud with the law thing came to a head. The Earp Brothers and Doc Holliday faced the criminals down in a shootout.

Tomorrow's 'sleepover' is starting to feel like the Gunfight at the OK Coral.

The outcome of the real story was three of the outlaws were killed. Another two claimed they were unarmed and ran from the fight. Virgil, Morgan, and Doc Holliday were wounded, but Wyatt Earp was unharmed.

How many Brexiteers can we expect to roll over and resign from the Cabinet and how many will surrender to May and the Pro-Business lobby? ONly time will tell.

Please place your bets for the number of resignations and the number of 'I support the PM' comments.

But don't get too excited. The showdown wasn't the end of the matter.

One of the outlaws who legged it, filed murder charges against the Earps and Doc Holliday. It took them some time for them to be acquitted.

Then Virgil Earp was ambushed and disabled in the arm later that year in December and Morgan Earp was assassinated in March 1882. Wyatt Earp, then thinking he had no other option, went on a personal vendetta to kill the outlaws and then fled the state.

Given the Tory Cabinet and the perchant for stabbing each other in the back and settling personal scores, a repeat of a wild west gun fight, really doesn't sound too wildly off the cards now does it?

Buckle up. Its time to play at Chequers.

OP posts:
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annandale · 08/07/2018 08:08

Guess the collective responsibility didn't last too long looking at that torygraph piece. Senior government source? DD?

54321go · 08/07/2018 08:11

Great cartoon (previous link)
Would that be a 'Ha Ha' between the lawns of Chequers and the field?

HesterThrale · 08/07/2018 08:12

So Boris says that May's proposal is like 'polishing a turd'?
So is Brexit is a turd, and this deal would make it slightly less bad...?
Haha. He may be right. Grin

RedToothBrush · 08/07/2018 08:20

I saw a tweet yesterday about Gove, Hannah and Cars well being distinct from other Brexiteers and a real split now having happened.

Lord Ashcroft @
I understand that Michael Gove was the first Brexiteer to support the plan proposed by the Prime Minister...

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
The Vote Leave coalition fractures: the Gove-ites were never really reconciled with the IDS-Jenkin-Patersonites. Conflict between these tribes caused the VL rows of Jan 2016.

And they probably won’t be reconciled again after yesterday...

Probably with consequences for Michael Gove’s appeal to Tory MPs

Carswell and Hannan have both made comments in the last 48 hours saying they are happy with the plan. Here are a couple to give you an invite into thinking.

Daniel Hannan @ Danieljhannan
I am more relaxed than some Eurosceptics about regulatory alignment in goods. The prospects for meaningful divergence, at least in the short term, are slight. But why the hell include farm produce? We should be buying from the world, outside the EU's agri-racket.

Douglas Carswell @ Douglascarswell
Those itching to cry “betrayal” ever since June 22, 2016 will cry betrayal. The rest of us should welcome an arrangement that allows incremental divergence.
Biggest danger to Brexit now is not Mrs May. It’s alliance of the irreconcilables on either side who come together and mess it up. One - the Remainiacs- with low calculation, the other in stupidity

Douglas Carswell @ Douglascarswell
What matters now is less the details of the Brexit deal, and more the resolve of HMG in sticking to it. No deal has to be a credible alternative and seen to be one. Too many ministers have been suckered by their civil servants into doing fa to prepare. That has to change now

Three govt departments where personnel need to change to prepare for no deal; Home Office, Treasury, Transport.

Douglas Carswell @ Douglascarswell
This ERG staffers analysis of the Chequers deal is daft. 6f of the deal makes it clear we are able to diverge - and expect less mkt access as we do. Who seriously imagines we want to diverge across the board at 00:01am on the day we depart?

In other words Gove, Hannan and Carswell are in the mindset that if you want to make Brexit work, you have to do it gradually. The most important thing initially is to leave, but a soft exit with few changes is not just preferable but necessary. In order to ensure we do leave, and be held hostage by the EU and remainders we need proper preparations for no deal situation. But they don't really want no deal, unless the alternative is continuity remain. Which they will see as a betrayal. Associate membership of the EU is still not membership of the EU so is fine. The ultimate goal is a gradual stepping away over time. Not needing to do it all on day one.

In fairness, this pragmatic approach is the only one which will actually work and is entirely sensible. Gove deliberately placing himself as distinct from kamikaze Brexiteers is smart on several levels. And I note that Lord Ashcroft's tweet seems more supportive than not.

If it came to it, they would support no deal over continuity remain, but with the added benefit of being able to say "well we have to leave the EU but this wasn't our preferred way of doing it. We aren't the nutters and hard liners". Thus the blame from the fail out goes elsewhere (Johnson and Rees-Smug).

In terms of a leadership challenge, Gove then becomes the acceptable, sensible pragmatic Brexiteers who has considerably more appeal to Remained who have reluantantly supported Brexit.

And I think the Ashcroft tweet significant given his relationship with the Trump and Farage camp.

The calculation is get us out the EU looking mild to Remained then put in your man, who will use (abuse) the Henry VIII powers much like Trump has been stretching the power of the executive in the US. Once we are out every thing is set up very nicely thank you very much, for the stripping of the UK for assets under a cloak of secrecy. So long as continuity remained don't see the inherent danger in all this from Gove as leader.

The interesting point is about which departments Carswell needs personal changes at. Treasury is self explanatory: Hammond and civil service see EU as our ally. Not US. Home Office: Windrush scandal exposes the jobs worth's and political liabilities plus Javid is a big threat to Gove. The weird one is transport: grayling was an ally of May despite being a leaver. But he's the biggest liability in government. But they obviously think there is a bigger problem than just that in there. Does transport cover Dover planning? Do they think the train scandals are a bigger issue to voter intent than Brexit itself? (Given Labour's focus on it, yes. It's not getting as many headlines as it should given how it's directly impacting and therefore influencing voter intent, which in turn is feeding back into Brexit policy position). Agriculture probably would be on the list, but they think they've got that covered as Gove is currently already at DEFRA.

My best guess: expect much more about this split in the leave camp. Gove wants to be seen as distinct and separate from the ERG now. They are toxic. It will look like he is supporting May. He's not. He's setting up for ousting May but getting into a better position to do so. The closer he gets to May, the more you should worry tbh. I think Gove potentially more influential than Johnson for this reason too. May isn't having to fire fight and man manage him. She will listen to him more.

I'm concerned. Gove is getting himself into a strong position, especially since Remain Tories will focus their attention on trying to block Johnson and Smug from being leader allowing Gove something of a free pass to later rounds of the contest.

OP posts:
Buteo · 08/07/2018 08:21

Britannia most likely derives from Pretannia, the name the Ancient Greeks ascribed to the main island and comes from Pretani, the Celtic name for the tattooed or painted inhabitants.

“Great Britain” became the official name with the Act of Union in 1707 (as the united kingdom of Great Britain), with James VI uniting the Kingdom of England (which included Wales) and the Kingdom of Scotland.

RedToothBrush · 08/07/2018 08:29

Also Gove doesn't want to collapse government. ERG are prepared to.

Gove fears an election.

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Peregrina · 08/07/2018 08:38

Spoke too soon re the not the Barmy Arms thread - a old goady Leaver poster has surfaced to assume that Remainers will mock because the England team are doing well. It shows the paucity of their arguments - not congratulating Theresa May on trying at least (two years late ) to try to square the circle, and shut her disloyal right wingers up.

lonelyplanetmum · 08/07/2018 08:48

Will Hutton articulates the only logical argument. Will's will is not broken.

I find it interesting how even the most ardent remainers ( including myself) have actually been broken by the last two years.

Politicians and voters may go on marches, seek another vote wearing EU flags etc etc. However the fight for our original position as a leader at the EU table is quite weak, most thoughts are about finding other solutions compromises -Norway plus, Jersey plus, Canada etc. We seem prepared to acquiesce towards any second best option.

The passion, hope and commitment should still be to ditch the whole thing.

"It is now obvious Britain [ not U.K.! ] cannot and should not leave the EU. Whatever deal Mrs May secures – post-Chequers, the aim is for the softest of soft Brexits – it is a second best outcome."

"One of the maddening aspects of the current debate is that no leading broadcaster seems capable of challenging the Brexiter trope about the alleged option of World Trade Organisation rules. The WTO is in an existential crisis. As the US launches its two-pronged trade war with China – one front on traditional manufactures, the other on hi-tech – the US wants to break it up. Protectionist China and the US are in no mood to strike a balanced free trade deal with the UK. The only area insulated from current madness is the EU and the 61 countries with whom it has trade agreement. In short, there is no feasible life for a middle-ranking European economic power outside the EU."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/07/soft-brexit-nobodys-interests-britain-cant-leave-eu?CMP=sharebtnn_tw

Peregrina · 08/07/2018 08:54

Torygraph fuming: Brexit deal will condemn Tories to landslide election defeat, MPs warn

Yes please. However, May's hard Brexit plans of her last election didn't deliver her the expected landslide success.

lonelyplanetmum · 08/07/2018 09:05

landslide election defeat

But then who/what? That's the persistent problem.

HesterThrale · 08/07/2018 09:07

lonelyplanet I read the Hutton article and was struck by that quote too.

Now it's becoming more obvious that no form of Brexit can successfully achieve the original aims, and the best option is to Remain, the question is 'how can we 'democratically' go about achieving this?'
(I still have some qualms about another vote.)

It would probably involve some major politicians 'sacrificing themselves' in some way, for the sake of the country. (The opposite of what they've been doing.)

54321go · 08/07/2018 09:12

I think, if I am interpreting it correctly that the Lawyersforbritain's assessment of Mrs Mays 'plan' (ref on previous page) is effectively saying the UK needs to either Leave spectacularly in a puff of smoke on 'Brexit morning' or (not their wished direction) remain completely. Any 'shilly shallying' will simply lose any powers.
Although the big manufacturers have 'made a stand' and obviously MUST have clarity (strangely absent considering it is a battle cry) VERY soon their departure is to an extent 'OK' as there are a lot of smaller businesses who collectively 'create' more but it is they who will suffer by prolonged indecision. Whether they have been 'mortally wounded' yet by the uncertainty is yet to be revealed.

54321go · 08/07/2018 09:19

If 'sacrificing myself for the country' meant sitting on the back benches collecting a salary and pension I would do it.
In ten or however many years time a review of 'Brexit' is made (assuming we are still not in the middle of negotiations) any that 'step down' for the good of the country will be looked upon favourably.

54321go · 08/07/2018 09:22

I think it was item 23 in that lawyersforbritain article that suggests that Mrs Mays 12 point plan is simply a delaying tactic.
The main problem with this is that in another 1,2,3 years time manufacturing and probably services will have died.

lonelyplanetmum · 08/07/2018 09:23

Gove is getting himself into a strong position,

Things could get worse. Will people with Daily Mail type grandparents please bang on over the summer about what Gove's retrograde backwards looking divisive interference has done to their grandchildren's schools and education please?

Peregrina · 08/07/2018 09:31

How long will it be before people realise that they won't be able to book their flight to Spain for next year's holiday? That will concentrate some minds - I don't think anyone voted for 'staycations'.

54321go · 08/07/2018 09:45

The possible 'travel ban' (Aeroplanes and ships unable to move) is almost nothing compared to the implications of changing or abandoning all the other rules.
The travel ban would only last a few weeks as feeding Britain would focus minds a bit (not convinced).

annandale · 08/07/2018 09:47

Yes peregrina but at least in media terms it plays brilliantly into the Remainers all being worried about Tarquin's year off and their third foreign holiday/second home in France. Plenty of b&b owners ready to be interviewed about bonzo business in the previously depressed seaside resorts - there was one in my paper yesterday. And the reason it plays so well is that there genuinely is a grain of truth in it. I don't believe it tells a rounded or real story - apart from anything else it is the elite Leavers like Farage and Lawson who have genuinely international lives - but there is something in it.

DGRossetti · 08/07/2018 09:47

Daily Mail type grandparents

Have we seen a shift in their stace, with the (upcoming) change in editor ?

If the Daily Mail put it's stamp of approval on it, this plan becomes the only game in town.

lljkk · 08/07/2018 10:31

John Redwood just said "Why would we want to control our borders!?"

ok, those weren't his words, but good as. Specific words were;
"Why would we delay lorries at our ports coming in from the EU?" So no need to check what's in the lorries & if the contents meet UK product standards. Who gives a toss about those, eh? He dodged questions about delays for UK products going to EU, both sides just supposed to 'trust' each other are following adequate rules about product quality.

Pienaar's politics, about 10:20am today. (sigh)

54321go · 08/07/2018 11:51

So Mr Redwood thinks that unchecked lorries, possibly full of immigrants would be a good idea.
Lorries from the UK to Europe can just park up all along the M20 and around the M25 as EU customs refuse to accept them. Seems like a plan then.

PineappleSunrise · 08/07/2018 11:59

Wait til the seaside B&B owners realise that fewer people will be taking holidays at all. For heaven's sake, have they not watched Back In Time for Tea? Holidays for all was a new-fangled thing back in the late 50s/early 60s.

lonelyplanetmum · 08/07/2018 12:09

So Mr Redwood thinks that unchecked lorries, possibly full of immigrants would be a good idea.

Hopefully some nurses and doctors included- although we do seemed to have softened our stance there?

TheElementsSong · 08/07/2018 13:12

My take-home message from the recent Barmy Arms (footballing irrelevance aside) is that even rampant Leavers are more determined to convey the impression of “happiness” with literally any Brexit-related development than to actually engage with details or facts - they’re not wailing about betrayal.

Peregrina · 08/07/2018 14:43

So Mr Redwood thinks that unchecked lorries, possibly full of immigrants would be a good idea.

Even if Deadwood hasn't cottoned on to this, it will take the would be immigrants all of three seconds or less to realise that they have a good chance of getting through now. I suspect we won't be able to rely on the French stopping them anymore.

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