Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Break Up or Make Up?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2018 07:53

The next week or so appears to be yet another crunch point (not that any of these crunch points have actually resolved anything so far).

The EU is set to outline the plan for Ireland. Which everyone thought had already been outlined and agreed already. And it had been admitted was legally binding.

Except apparently we don't want to do that, and we are now crying about how the EU want to break up Britain (nothing to do with England wanting to leave the EU and Scotland and NI wanting to stay in it of course).

Jeremy Corbyn has now apparently decided that the customs union is a good idea. David Davis and Liam Fox have responded by saying that this would stop us making our own trade deals. Yes this has obviously stopped Turkey, and why aren't we doing as much trade with China etc as Germany anyway? A vote in the HoC looms before Easter. Will Tory rebels support.

Will Jeremy Corbyn bow to pressure over the single market too? The customs union alone does not stop the border issue in Ireland. Nor does it stop ridiculous queues at Dover. I'm not sure Corbyn is one for listening though. He's got a whiff of power and democracy and reality is just a hindrance to utopia.

As for the Great Repeal Bill. Word has it, its not going too clever in the HoL. The conservatives had something of a show of strength with an unusual number turning up for the debate. But few on the backbenches were willing to speak in favour of...

It all feels like we are making no progress at all. We are still bleating on about cherry picked deals as if this is a negotiation. Its not.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
prettybird · 01/03/2018 14:22

I agree: Donald Tusk could have had an alternative career as a dry comedian Grin

I love the way that he trolls the UK Government and rabid Brexiters with his wry observations in what is his second or is it third? language, for example last week when he said "Cake philosophy is still alive"
and that the UK position in Brexit negotiations is based on an "illusion." Confused and pointing out the blindingly obvious to everyone but the pig headed Brexiters that the British government was unrealistically still trying to cherry-pick certain rights after it leaves the EU .

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 01/03/2018 14:37

Guy Verhofstadt
‏*@guyverhofstadt*
In 2003, I sided with France and Germany against Tony Blair and George Bush on the Iraq war. Even if we fundamentally disagreed in the past, I was pleased to welcome him today. We discussed a number of issues including the future relationship between the EU and the UK.

DGRossetti · 01/03/2018 14:39

Meant to mention this last week, but even the headbangers who drone one about being "English" for zillions of generations are (a) wrong and (b) foreign anyway ..

www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/21/arrival-of-beaker-folk-changed-britain-forever-ancient-dna-study-shows

(excerpt)

Geneticist Ian Barnes, from the Natural History Museum in London, said: “At least 90% of the ancestry of Britons was replaced by a group from the continent. Following the Beaker spread, there was a population in Britain that for the first time had ancestry and skin and eye pigmentation similar to the majority of Britons today.”

So we are ultimately African, via Iberia ?

mrsreynolds · 01/03/2018 14:51

Turns out my married name is one of the 5/6 English names that are pre Norman conquest
My maiden name is Anglo Saxon
Have my family and I been here long enough to count as English?
😩

HesterThrale · 01/03/2018 15:05

Yesterday - Previous Tory PM criticising current one.
Today - Previous Labour PM saying what he'd be doing if he were Labour leader.

We really are suffering from poor leadership all round...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-43245541/tony-blair-if-i-were-labour-leader-i-d-be-hammering-the-tories-on-brexit

Hasenstein · 01/03/2018 15:15

My surname is apparently pre-7th century and comes from an Old English word. Learn something new every day.

Is this old enough and can I come out of hiding now?

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/03/2018 15:20

My maiden name is Anglo Saxon
Have my family and I been here long enough to count as English?

My last name is Norman with Greek origins - can I qualify as an EU citizen please?

SalvatoreGuiliano · 01/03/2018 15:28

My (real) surname is Sicilian, but derived from the Arabic part of that islands history. (If you want a European island with more immigration than Great Britain, Sicily is probably a good place to start).

It's unheard of in the UK ( a great interview ice breaker Smile) but fairly stock in Sicily, and therefore America. It popped up in an episode of Il Commissario Montalbano ...

prettybird · 01/03/2018 15:46

My surname can be traced back to the 1500s in Germany (so is probably even older than that) and then went via Sweden to South Africa, arriving there in the late 1700s. People assume it is Dutch because of my South African heritage.

My granny was half German, half English, brought up in Denmark. Her MIL was Irish, descended from French Huguenots.

On my mother's side, there is a claim that we are descended from Henry VIII wrong side of the blanket Wink

Ironically, apart from the fact that my mum was born in Scotland (but only because her Australian dad was working here during WW2), I can't find any Scottish links in my tree Shock

Do I qualify as European Elite? Wink

DGRossetti · 01/03/2018 15:50

The second anyone starts digging, it seems there's tales aplenty. Why, it's almost as if humans have been moving around forever ?

RedToothBrush · 01/03/2018 16:08

Article 127. We have to trigger it to leave the EEA by 29th March 2018...

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/03/01/article-127-the-key-brexit-decision-with-a-one-month-deadlin
Article 127: The key Brexit decision with a one-month deadline

Interesting stuff this one... if we don't trigger then maybe we aren't leaving the Single Market afterall.

OP posts:
lalalonglegs · 01/03/2018 16:27

It's hard to believe the combined forces of the government and the civil service are too thick to have realised this. It has to be a deliberate ploy - that will be followed by much forehead-slapping when they are rumbled and general diatribes against the EU forcing us to stay in the SM.

DGRossetti · 01/03/2018 16:42

It's hard to believe the combined forces of the government and the civil service are too thick to have realised this

I am sure the civil service has acted impeccably here. (By the way, where was JRMs apology published, after he accused the civil service of exercising a political bias ?).

The old adage about "give them enough rope" was never truer than when you are dealing with people who won't listen.

There will be a memo, somewhere to the cabinet advising of this fact. And I can imagine that a canny civil servant made sure it carried a bodyguard of loads and loads of facts (which we have discovered are like Kryptonite to Brexit) and thus skipped over by people of such intellectual calibre as Davies, Fox and Johnson.

At a guess, Gove might have spotted it. But then he's on his own agenda anyway, and in no way minded to help aforesaid Davies, Fox and Johnson. So keeping schtum might make sense.

And because it seems at times Theresa May has to do Davies, Fox and Johnsons jobs, as well as her own (whatever that is ?) it's easy to see how she could miss it.

Especially if (as I suspect it might emerge one day) civil servants have been instructed not to raise any negatives about Brexit.

In a party obsessed with treachery (with good reason) the last thing anyone wants is an incredibly efficient civil service preparing ready made ammunition for your opponents.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/03/2018 16:59

I hope they continue to fail to address it - for the next month at least - anything that buys us time from complete and utter catastrofuck.
Will they just continue to ignore it?
Would they need to vote to trigger it like with A50?
Is there time to do this before March 29th?
Might the rebels refuse to vote on party lines?
Will Keir Starmer be able to push Jeremy Corbyn into opposing it in time?
All in all - it might have been better to save that article until after the deadline. There's no need to draw the govts attention to yet more things they can utterly fuck up without thinking.

DGRossetti · 01/03/2018 17:04

Does there need to be a parliamentary vote to trigger ?

Meantimes, I'm surprised the more swivel-eyed-loons haven't gone full-jingo over storm Emma being a French named storm (among others).

DGRossetti · 01/03/2018 17:05

All in all - it might have been better to save that article until after the deadline. There's no need to draw the govts attention to yet more things they can utterly fuck up without thinking.

Don't worry, it's a fact. Quite invisible to the most fervent Brexiteer.

woman11017 · 01/03/2018 17:09

Is there time to do this before March 29th
Icantreachthepretzels from the politico article.
If the government doesn’t trigger Article 127 in the next four weeks, we should assume we are not leaving. If it does - let MPs confirm they are happy to face the oncoming ruin
Looks like, legally, they should have parliamentary vote. Earlier than they'd hoped? Is why they're keeping the legal advice secret?

DGRossetti · 01/03/2018 17:13

The whole article ... might explain why we are here, now.

Brexit is fundamentally a to-do list problem. There are too many items on it and too little motivation to complete them. So it's unfortunate for the government that one major but rarely-addressed item on the list needs to be resolved in just four weeks' time.

March 29th is the deadline for invoking Article 127 of the 1994 European Economic Area (EEA) Agreement. This, like Article 50, triggers the termination of membership. In this case it’s not our membership of the EU, but the EEA, the broader single market which includes non-EU countries Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein.

Article 127 declares that contracting parties - one of which is the UK - must give twelve months’ notice of departure. As things stand in our case, that's March 29th 2019. The logical extension is that if a contracting party does not do so, they must consider themselves still members and therefore bound by all the ensuing obligations. In other words, we stay in the single market until we trigger the clause.

Not everyone agrees with this. Some have argued that failing to trigger Article 127 would put us into some kind of twilight legal category, perhaps technically linked to the agreement but outside of the conditions for its membership. Either way, the issue needs to be addressed. The government has refused to do so.

Since my organisation British Influence first brought these issues to light in November 2016, the government has consistently argued against the need to trigger Article 127. They principally argue that Article 126 of the EEA Agreement invalidates it.

Article 126 implies that the agreement only pertains to EU and named EFTA states, and consequently, when we cease to be an EU member state, we automatically leave the EEA as well. Article 127, by this logic, is subordinate to and contingent on Article 50. That seems odd, given that Norway and Iceland are outside the EU and not subject to its treaties, but still subject to Article 127. But that is the government’s position.

In February 2017 my colleague Peter Wilding and Brexiter Adrian Yalland petitioned for a judicial review into the government’s decision. This case had two prongs: the first, that the government had to trigger Article 127 if it wished to leave the single market, the second - echoing the Gina Miller case - that this would have to be a decision for parliament, not the prime minister.

The government changed its arguments over the course of the litigation period. Initially its defence was that it hadn’t decided whether to leave the EEA. Then it changed its line to not having decided how to leave it. Consequently the court was forced to conclude that the petition for judicial review was premature and rejected it.

A year of ever-deepening Brexit chaos later and the government has still not publicly stated whether, when or how it intends to trigger Article 127. It is no longer premature. We are supposed to be leaving the EU in less than thirteen months. A new case could be forthcoming.

In the House of Lords debate on the withdrawal bill last week, Brexit minister Lord Callanan repeated the line that Article 127 was not necessary in order for the EEA to cease legal effect. He also refused Lord Adonis’s request to publish any associated legal advice. We can only speculate why.

So why does this matter?

First, it is a question of international law. Most Efta officials believe that triggering Article 127 is a legal requirement. Planning to leave the EEA without following the correct procedure would be an outrage. This is the worst possible look for a country which is about to try to sign a series of international treaties with partners across the world, and which wants to be seen as a reliable state capable of adhering to agreed rules.

Second, it is a question of people’s rights and parliamentary sovereignty. Gina Miller succeeded in forcing a parliamentary vote because leaving the EU removes rights, which cannot be an act of royal prerogative. Leaving the EEA similarly takes away rights - not just of EU citizens, but the automatic rights of Norwegians and Icelanders to live and trade freely in Britain, and Britons’ reciprocal rights in Norway and Iceland.

Third, we should be in the EEA as an end in itself. Doing so would spare us the incoming economic damage of leaving the single market. Far from just being rule takers, the EEA system gives you full single market access (except for agriculture and fisheries) inside a system of independent institutional consultation and judicial mechanisms. The EEA EFTA countries use a separate court - the EFTA court, with judges from their own countries - to adjudicate on single market matters. They are consulted on EU single market legislation and they do not automatically implement new laws. Nor do those countries pay anything directly into the EU budget. It is not as good as staying in the EU, but it is, along with remaining in the customs union, the next best thing.

Why is the government so opposed to triggering Article 127? Quite probably it's because of that Gina Miller case. They know they would have to consult parliament before doing so. And if they did, they would discover that there is almost certainly no Commons majority for leaving the single market.

If the government doesn’t trigger Article 127 in the next four weeks, we should assume we are not leaving. If it does - let MPs confirm they are happy to face the oncoming ruin.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/03/2018 17:17

Looks like, legally, they should have parliamentary vote

Which if they try to circumvent would hopefully lead to another legal challenge from the Jolyon Maugham types - which certainly can't be sorted in 4 weeks.

If they do a) notice in time and B) put it to the vote - and the bulk of the opposition and Anna Soubry et al all go along with it - like they did with A50 - then I might just stick my head in a gas oven.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/03/2018 17:25

That bit about article 126 invalidating it...call me thick but surely the triggering of A127 is just a vote and a letter to the relevant people... so regardless of whether it was necessary or not - there's no harm in playing it safe and triggering A127 anyway? Especially if one of the possible fall outs would be to look like we were reneging on a treaty in bad faith, just as we are about to sail boldly into the wider world, bucaneering as we go?

So is this a cunning backdoor plan to remaining in the EEA?

or is it just the regular mixture of incompetence and evil that we have come to expect from our brave leaders?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 01/03/2018 17:44

I’m opting for evil and incompetence

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 01/03/2018 17:51

Guy Verhofstadt
@guyverhofstadt
EU citizenship does not replace our national citizenship, it is additional to it. This campaign deserves the support of all those who agree with Churchill's vision of a “common citizenship” which would unite Europe together #IamEuropean

[And he included this article in his tweet (referenced? Replied to? Embedded? Not sure of the technical term)]

Our rights to EU citizenship are worth fighting for – despite Brexit

UK nationals in the Netherlands want to take their case to the European court of justice. They need your help

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/01/eu-citizenship-brexit-ecj-netherlands?__twitter_impression=true

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 01/03/2018 17:51

Quoted!

woman11017 · 01/03/2018 18:01

Toes crossed for that legal case pain Righteous fellow that Verhofstadt. It's a strange business dealing with a gov which breaks the law so much, Icantreachthepretzels

DGRossetti · 01/03/2018 18:14

But EU citizenship is backstopped by the ECJ ... it was posited a year ago that a spiteful UK government would simply refuse to recognise it.