Is anyone actually pleased with the way things are going so far?

[Bearbehind]

I appreciate Remainers aren’t going to be happy with things but I’m really struggling to see how anyone can be pleased with the unbelievable mess this situation is.

I can literally hear TM repeating the words ‘make me an offer’ in her robotic mantra as is reported here

Why haven’t we come up with any robust plans yet?

Why can’t we state what we want in more detail than ‘a deep and special relationship’?

Why are we still working on the premise we can have our cake and eat it?

a settlement that has primarily benefitted an urban, educated elite

So not towns and areas in northern England, Wales etc etc that have received EU funding for decades? And not people whose living relies on beaches and sea coasts that have been protected and improved, and seen a massive hike in visitors and therefore money spent, by EU schemes and laws?

No, the EU hasn't benefitted any of them. Which I guess is why no one in Sunderland or Wales or Cornwall, since the vote, has made a request for funding for their area to continue—

Oh hang on…

"That was the award for the most deluded comment I've read since the vote"

You asked the question, you got an answer. What exactly was the purpose of the thread?

What exactly was the purpose of the thread?
Bananad - I think the purpose is for bearbehind to sneer and patronise anyone who disagrees with her/him.

"Oh hang on…"

In your rush to sarcasm you appear to have missed that I did qualify with "primarily".

That said, I imagine that being empowered radically to reshape the political and economic infrastructure in your own interests rather than having to rely on grants from an unanswerable elsewhere in compensation for a status quo that suits someone else would be an infinitely preferable way to live. But as a relatively privileged urbanite perhaps I'm projecting.

And, since the grants being doled out so magnanimously by the EU were being funded by UK tax take, I think those areas in receipt of them are totally entitled to lobby for their continuation post-brexit.

@Dapplegrey I think I'm catching on...

@Bananad

JRM, is that you, your assistant, or that person you fired because of excessive extremism?

I thought mummy2017 was in a pretty bad shape, but this stuff is properly insane. Let's raze the land with nuclear weapons and start evolving life over, that's how bad things are in @Bananad's mind. Well, bananas indeed!

What exactly was the purpose of the thread?

To discuss how happy people are with progress.

It’s a bit hard to do that when comments are so vague and meaningless.

What power flowing back into institutions were you referring to?

It sounds very grand but what is it based on?

@Bearbehind I reckon he must have been referring to Henry VIII powers, since that's what has been mostly flowing. A great triumph of modern democracy obviously.

Yes that's part of it. Actually, use of delegated legislation (statutory instruments/Henry VIII clauses) has been a problem for a long time. Apart from the odd Guardian blog, an Independent front page or a Criminal Law weekly editorial here or there nobody seems to have taken that much notice though. While we've (broadly) not been looking, delegated legislation has been used to remove student maintenance grants, enact changes to the electoral register that saw 800,000 mostly young people drop off it, allow fracking under national parks and heritage sites, and make winter fuel allowance cuts to expat pensioners. I've read that New Labour alone used it to create 3,000 new offences, over a third of which carried (carry?) prison sentences. But that's as nothing to the outing it got with the Coalition.

As the Hansard Society said in 2014:

In recent years, the use of delegated legislation by successive governments has increasingly drifted into areas of principle and policy rather than the regulation of administrative procedures and technical areas of operational detail. There has been such an expansion in the scope and application of powers and procedures that a precedent could arguably be found to justify almost any form of delegation a minister might now desire.

The scrutiny process for delegated legislation has become unnecessarily complex such that most MPs simply don’t understand it. And the procedures - particularly those for praying against negative instruments and Delegated Legislation Committee debates for affirmative instruments – are illogical and weak. The process confuses and intimidates in equal measure, serving to wrap it in a fog of obscurity.

Business and civil society groups with a real interest in a particular subject are often baffled by the process. The role and interests of the public are almost completely ignored. The complexity of the process, the lack of understanding among parliamentarians and the public, the uneven application of processes and procedures, and the extent to which these now undermine the principle and time-saving purpose of delegation all point to a system that is not fit for purpose.

The defects in the system are now so serious that piecemeal reform of existing processes and procedures is likely to exacerbate rather than ameliorate the problems.

But the powers that come back with Brexit are definitely more significant than reintroducing fox hunting or forcing through £4bn of tax cuts (both attempted by Cameron and Osbourne using delegated legislation) and suddenly there's such a brou-ha-ha about it that even Mumsnet can get its knickers in a good old twist . I think there's a good chance the root-and-branch reform that the Hansard Society has been calling for might finally come to pass, should the Lords not get their way. That is definitely a good thing.

Guardian blog
New Statesman comment
Independent article
Hansard Society report

@Bananad TLDR; TBH I hope you have stopped short of suggesting the presence of Henry VIII powers in our legal system is also the EU's fault

While HVIII powers may have been used here and there before, there is no denying that it is this disgraceful government which has proposed their application on a truly unprecedented scale! I feel your somewhat prolonged discourse was aimed at driving our attention away from that shameful fact

As for the Lords, let's hope they do not falter in their duty to best serve the country in response to the onslaught of bullying by Brexit zealots.

"TLDR...I feel your somewhat prolonged discourse was aimed at..."

OK @Bananad, now I've read the spam - exactly what I thought it was: an attempt at distraction. We know Henry VIII powers are bad, but the crucial point is that TM's government are uber-villains for attempting to abuse them to such an extent.

Im a Remainer but accepted the vote. However this govt is an embarrassment and I don’t have any confidence in any of them.

I also think the shit is going to hit the fan this week, when Trade is being discussed. And the govts incompetence will become very very clear.

bananad I still don't understand how you think the current turmoil is due to power coming back.

We can't decide what we even want, other than our cake and eat it, so the 'power' isn't achieving anything.

Could it be that you're missing the point, @LondonMum8?

@Bananad TBH it is highly unlikely but please do correct me if I'm wrong (I'm wondering why you haven't already) :)

I am not in UK but in Europe. Believe me we all think you lot are totally bonkers.

Not for wanting to leave the EU let it be said, that is a democratic decision, but for the total clusterfk of aspiration, bullying, and lack of planning or vision that it is turning into now.

virtual
I am not in UK but in Europe. Believe me we all think you lot are totally bonkers

I don’t blame you at all!
But I hope the world realises that nearly half of the UK population wanted to stay in. Please don’t tar us all with the same brush

@Bearbehind

What I think the Henry VIII row illustrates is that where there's no power there's no power struggle. You said it yourself; this is "turmoil". A new balance of power is surely on the way - pragmatism and economics dictate* - but where it settles is still up for grabs. And yes, we're making a terrible hash of it but we're novices. In retrospect it's hard to see any other (realistic) scenario in which we wouldn't have been. Ok, so we might not get it right first time round but the principle is important: now that accountability is going to rest closer to home and be more wieldy we can have another go at it. And another, and another.

• not to mention the automatic operation of international law of course (A50). ha.

@LondonMum8 perhaps there are people on here who find cries of "spam!", "subterfuge!", "TLDR!" incentive enough to go to the trouble of explaining themselves in words of one syllable but I'm not amongst them. At least not today

And yes, we're making a terrible hash of it

At least we agree on that!

We just seem to be making such basic, fundamental errors.

We've already committed to no hard border in NI yet yesterday a spokesperson said we won't be part of 'the' or 'a' customs union.

The EU are just laughing at us and waiting for the u-turn on the latter because they know we can't u-turn on the former.

Bearbehind,

I just could not believe that TM said NO to Customs Union given the trouble over the ROI/UK (NI) border. What is she smoking!

The view from here is respectful of the democratic choice to leave (albeit that nearly the same number wanted to stay!), but there was no plan, still is no plan, lots of fudge and indecisiveness, contradition etc. etc.

It is a pantomine alright, and whatever side you are on, you cannot blame people for looking on aghast at the lack of preparation/planning.

The arrogance of it all is just so amusing. Bow down oh EU to our demands, well we really don't know what we are looking for, but give them to us anyway and we will all be great pals no matter what. Funny if it wasn't so serious really.

Why is it the EU can set out its negotiating stance in a tightly written position paper and our response is that DD set out our position in his speech in Teeside last month?

I, along with most others, clearly missed the part of that speech where he set out our position in any greater detail than the elusive 'deep and special' relationship.