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Brexit

Westministenders: The Return of Parliamentary Sleaze?

989 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2017 14:35

Brexit is quietly going round and round in ever decreasing circles.

The story is that the European parliament will not agree to a transition period beyond 1st January 2020.

The third minister responsible for getting the Repel Bill through the Lords has quit. There are now nearly 400 amendments. It is scheduled for 6 days parliamentary time in the Commons from this coming week. With another 2 possible the following week. Rather bravely AFTER the budget. Bored with May, CVs are being submitted for the position of Chancellor.

Interest Rates are looking likely to rise next week too with the message being 'this is as good as it gets'.

Another team of MPs has gone to the EU to see if they can check up on May and her team. This is unlikely to work as Nicola Sturgeon came across a brick wall.

And then there are the many many distractions from it all.

Catalonia has declared independence, which will consume EU time and energy.

There are rumours that the first prosecution in Trump Russia will be Monday (Guess who is currently in the US. Yep, the gurning one). And there are increasing muttering about Russia over here, with Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg being called to respond to a Select Committee investigation into Fake News.

And then there's the sleaze. Jared O'Mara seems to be the first in the queue. There are rumours more will be outed in several parties. Suggestions include May's right hand man Damien Green who was previously named in 2008. And the Tory Whips have a 'sleaze list' which suggests they know whats going on, but have done nothing.

This morning we have Gove making ill advised jokes about Weinstein in this political climate. With Neil Kinnock laughing heartily in response.

Anything that happens will be political to discredit opponents not because there is a change of attitude towards the treatment of women. We know this, because of who is leading the charge on this. The skeletons are being dusted off out the cupboard rather than exposed for the first time in dramatic fashion.

Things, could take a very unexpected turn against this background.

Don't bet against it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
lalalonglegs · 04/11/2017 10:40

A rule that meant all matters of sleaze/corruption/sexual misconduct went to a central, impartial parliamentary authority, rather than the whips' offices would be a start. Any MP or parliamentary worker who tried to circumvent that would be punished.

HesterThrale · 04/11/2017 10:46

Sorry, forgot the Clegg article link:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews.co.uk/opinion/nick-clegg-parliament-hasnt-learnt-expenses-scandal/amp/

Also. Peston on LBC:

^Although Peston backed Remain, he said the 17.4 million Brexit votes in last year’s referendum was a “massive wake up call to everybody”.
He admitted he felt “ashamed” that himself and the people he’d surrounded himself with “were out of touch with millions of people”.
"....they have thrown all the cards up in the air, they don’t know yet how they’re going to land - but it was the right thing to do.”^

Not sure I agree with the idea of Brexit as a catalyst/ vehicle for change, as I think it'll make things worse, but... to try and take the long view...
... no... still can't come round to Brexit.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/robert-peston-admits-brexit-voters-were-on-the-rig/

Peregrina · 04/11/2017 10:53

I think Brexit could have been a catalyst for change if it had been handled better. There could have been an acknowledgement that the public value the NHS and want to see it supported, and an acknowledgement that many areas have suffered under Westminster imposed austerity. If someone had taken a deep breathe - said that the Referendum was advisory and set up a cross-party commission to examine all the options, before going back to Parliament to present them, then we wouldn't be in this mess. Instead we got a panic stricken resignation from Cameron, Gove and Johnson running away from the situation and May taking over and being totally in thrall to her UKIP wing. The UKIP wing will never be satisfied, so she needs to tell them to either put up and come up with some proper ideas or shut up. Preferably the latter.

woman11017 · 04/11/2017 10:58

entering a period of nation-building
Local remain group has a local remain voting conservative association chair interested in joining. He says there are many local remain conservatives unhappy with the way the brexitty conservative MP is behaving.

They are being welcomed into the local remain group.

DrivenToDespair · 04/11/2017 11:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2017 12:11

In a democracy, it is impossible to ringfence the BBC licence fee
There is no longer consensus among politicians that the BBC should be independent
Those days have gone for ever

Also, 100,000s of the poorest wc people, mostly women, are paying with criminal convictions and hardship just so that the mc can hope one day to turn back the BBC clock.
No.

In the digital mass media age, broadcasting is NOT an essential service that should be compulsorily paid for by the poor
People now choose the media they wish to view
They reject those they don't

It is up to the centre and left to but and support the media they wish
The US public who listen to Fox news would do so whatever alternatives were offered from a more independent source

Cheeseandcucumber · 04/11/2017 12:12

I'm fairly new to politics and confused about very many things something. I understand MPs can initiate inquiries where they see fit, does that include inquiries into their own party or specific members behaviour?

BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2017 12:58

As with any organisation, members can bring matters to the attention of their leaders, who can choose to order an enquiry

  • or can avoid doing so until the pressure becomes to great.

Individual members can contact their leaders, raise questions in party meetings, in the media, even in the HoC.
However, they can't order an enquiry because they don't have the power to do so - they don't control the resources

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 04/11/2017 13:04

I don't disagree that there are issues with editorial independence and criminalisation of non-payers. But complete abolition of a national charge for broadcasting strikes me as the kind of simplistic thinking that characterises Tory policy.

There is no necessary connection between government funding and toeing the government line. Most scientists receive government funding and manage to act independently of it (despite the kind of pressure we have recently seen). I don't see any reasons why - with the right kind of governance structure - broadcasters couldn't assume the same degree of independence.

The law could easily be changed so that non-payment becomes a civil rather than a criminal matter, and there's no reason why people on benefits etc shouldn't get a lower rate (assuming that this is not already the case).

I am very skeptical that we would see the same breadth of content if we dispensed with the public service ethos. Services like Radios 3 and 6 have no counterpart in the commercial space that I am aware of. Children's programming that is entirely free of advertising is something else that also fits into this space. How do we still get these things when it's thrown out to the private sector? And how do we get it for £12 a month (less than a broadband connection, and just over half of what Sky charges you)?

(There is also a widespread myth that the UK is unique in having a licence system. I was flabbergasted when required to pay a fee to own a radio when living in Germany; doubly so when I found that the 'state' services carried advertising.)

Bolshybookworm · 04/11/2017 13:51

I think the idea that Brexit was a vote for change is laughable tbh. If that's the case then why do we still have a conservative, austerity pushing government? The people that voted for Brexit were happy to maintain the status quo in government, by and large. May only lost her majority because she ran a disastrous campaign.

Brexit was a vote against change, it was a vote to take us back to the 1970s, to stop the encroachment of the modern world.

People who voted leave "for the NHS" and then vote conservative Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2017 14:16

EEEE The old idea of an independent BBC harkens back to the 1950s-1970s
Those days are gone
No way to bring them back - a democratic society must always control what people are legally compelled to pay

The BBC is now just a state broadcasting service, like in any other country, that is the mouthpiece of whatever govt is in power

People should be able to choose free TV channels, or even just to own a TV, without either criminal or civil proceedings - summons, bailiffs etc are horrendous.

The BBC is currently a household tax on poor families to pay for a middle class luxury service that they may never wish to watch.

Make the BBC subscription only and pay for the ad-free programs and range of programs that you want;
get off the backs of the poor

BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2017 14:19

(paywall) Exclusive: EU tells Britain it’s living in ‘fantasy land’ over hopes for a ‘basic’ Brexit deal

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/04/britain-living-fantasy-land-hopes-basic-brexit-senior-eu-officials/

Three separate EU sources in both Brussels and a leading EU capital have warned that British expectations of a “no deal, deal”
had failed to understand the ramifications of the UK pulling out Europe without paying its bills.

The tough European line raises serious question about the value of assurances given by David Davis to the Lords this week
that Europe would do a “basic” deal with Britain in the event that both sides were unable to negotiate a trade deal.

The Brexit secretary told the Lords EU select committee that
in the “very, very improbable” event that a deal proved beyond the two sides, worst-case scenarios would be averted.

“Whatever happens we will have a basic deal without the bits we really want,”
he said < nope >

However European officials are adamant that if the UK exits the EU without a deal
– leaving an immediate €20bn black hole in the EU’s seven-year budget framework –
there will be no appetite to engineer a soft landing for the UK

“This is pure fantasy,”
said a senior EU diplomat closely involved in the Brexit negotiations,
“the idea of a ‘no deal deal’ completely fails to understand the EU, or the fury that would result if the British leave without paying their bills.

“At that point, the EU wouldn’t be looking to make a parachute for the UK,
it will only be working out how to cut strings.”

A second Brussels-based source was equally clear.
“If things go really sour the 27 will be in no mood to try to collate a number of last-minute mini emergency deals for ‘free’.
We’ll be busy enough trying to sort out the budget fallout.”

The emphasis on the EU’s annual budget
– to which the UK contributes some €10bn a year –
begs the question of whether Theresa May would be prepared to pay for the “basic” Brexit deal envisaged by Mr Davis.

Mrs May has so far pledged that the UK will pay its dues in 2019 and 2020 in order to secure a transition and future trade deal,
but Whitehall sources indicated it was from certain that the UK would pay that amount to secure a “basic” Brexit that included no trade deal at all.

It is equally uncertain that the EU, which is demanding €60bn to settle what it says are Britain’s past liabilities from EU membership,
would accept €20bn for a “basic” Brexit that enable the UK to escape the worst consequences of a no-deal departure.

The EU’s current budget cycle runs up until 2020,
leaving two unpaid years by the UK in the event of ‘crash out’ Brexit,
making €20bn the key number that would keep the remaining EU member states from having to re-open the budget.

The warnings from Europe also cast doubt over the scenario-planning at the Department for Exiting the European Union
which Whitehall sources have told The Sunday Telegraph are based on the idea of both a “managed” and an “unmanaged” no-deal.
....
In the “unmanaged” scenario, recently described as a “bad-tempered” Brexit by Chancellor Philip Hammond,
the UK would crash out of the EU with no deal whatsoever, causing significant initial disruption over trade, aviation, data-sharing.

EU sources said that in such an eventuality,
only a deal to secure the rights of EU citizens stranded on either side of the Channel
– perhaps based initially on unilateral pledges from the EU and the British government –
would be likely.

However, given the scale of likely chaos, the UK therefore envisages a “managed” no-deal scenario, Hmm
in which the government believes it would strike a number of quick deals to mitigate the worst impacts of leaving without a trade deal

These would be based on using ‘Mutual Recognition Agreements’ to keep trade flowing,
as well as separate deals to keep planes flying
and data flowing,
according to Whitehall sources with knowledge of the UK plans.

Questions over the practicality of this second ‘no deal’ scenario have stoked disagreement between DexEU and the Treasury
over how long it would take to stand up such deals – if they were offered.

The treasury has argued preparations would need to begin as soon as March next year,
if it became politically apparent that a deal with Brussels was impossible,
while DexEU believes the Brexit brinkmanship could run up until October before seeking a ‘managed’ crash out.
< so they are playing chicken. That often ends disastrously >

EU sources warned that any “no deal” scenario that took place outside the Article 50 framework
which can be ratified by a majority of EU states –
would also force the UK to ratify those “quick” deals through the EU’s 38 national and regional parliaments.

“Even the simplest the aviation deal, for example, could not be drafted overnight,”
the Brussels source warned.

“And even if it could be,
the political environment surrounding a breakdown in talks would hardly be conducive to rapid ratification by EU parliaments.”

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2017 14:25

Just.

Really.

Westministenders: The Return of Parliamentary Sleaze?
OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 04/11/2017 15:06

I think the idea that Brexit was a vote for change is laughable tbh.

Not sure I agree with that, Bolshy. The Tories assumed all working class UKIP voters would vote Tory - hence why she called the GE. They didn't, I don't think. They returned to Labour. Of Brexit voters, many were voting for the first time. I suspect lots didn't vote in the GE.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2017 15:36

Tim Walker‏ @ThatTimWalker

Expect more revelations in at least one Sunday newspaper tomorrow about the scale of Russian trolling during EU Referendum.

OP posts:
Bolshybookworm · 04/11/2017 16:44

I don't think they would have gone to labour if the tories hadn't so completely cocked up their campaign, swedish.

Sure, a small portion of Brexit voters wanted a shift change but plenty voted for lots of other reasons e.g. Wanting rid of polish people, "sovereignty", fishing etc. Lots of leave voters voted with a specific issue in mind rather than wanting a reorganisation of our entire political system/economy. Hence why the leave pamphlet I received said we could stay in the single market- leave would bring change, but not too much to scare the voters Angry

We are told repeatedly that you can't lump all leave voters in with the racists, I would say the same goes for the lexiters.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 04/11/2017 17:29

bigchoc I disagree, strongly, with the fundamental stance that public service media has had its day. These threads have been full of stories of how superficially open and free platforms, like Facebook, Twitter and even these threads from time to time, are in the grip of deep-pocketed political activists. Operating services in the public interest seems to be a one way to counter that.

Now I don’t claim that the bbc is currently doing that, or its funding model is the best one. But likewise public service doesn’t have to equivalent to a state mouthpiece, and I’ve provided one example where that doesn’t seem to be the case.

I’m also slightly confused as to how a more expensive, closed-off subscription service benefits the poor.

DrivenToDespair · 04/11/2017 18:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman11017 · 04/11/2017 18:32

100,000s of the poorest wc people, mostly women, are paying with criminal convictions and hardship just so that the mc can hope one day to turn back the BBC clock.
Have to agree with you there, BigChoc It's not an honest tax, like most of them these days. BBC is just a purchaser of product now anyway. Other purchasers will appear, selling ad time to pay for product. BBC news, sports and royal coverage is an embarrassment atm
When we did have Sky, their arts coverage was excellent, way better than BBC2 or 4.

woman11017 · 04/11/2017 18:37

the scale of Russian trolling during EU Referendum
Patrick and Cadwalla et al are really going for it
@lbrough
Raheem Kassam has also publicly confirmed today that Matthew RICHARDSON is the lawyer who vets their/Breitbart’s work
@WokChiSteve

Replying to @lbrough @Byline_Media
Thats Leave.EUs lawyer right?.

Westministenders: The Return of Parliamentary Sleaze?
OlennasWimple · 04/11/2017 18:41

Yy, Peregrina. Brexit was a once in a lifetime opportunity to do something bold and meaningful, not sit around twiddling our thumbs and pissing away our negotiating hand

OlennasWimple · 04/11/2017 18:43

Red - do you think that Charles Moore is thinking of the Two Ronnies mini series "The Worm that Turned"? It was set in 2012 (!), when women had the upper hand and completely subjugated men

woman11017 · 04/11/2017 18:48

@JellyWobbleBott

Poor old @ArronBanks had his account suspended by Twitter. Or possibly by the Russians??

mathanxiety · 04/11/2017 19:11

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_for_Public_Broadcasting

The American model of funding for public broadcasting.

I have personally always been appreciative of PBS programming on my local PBS tv and radio stations.

mathanxiety · 04/11/2017 19:13

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBS
The Public Broadcasting Service.