Westminstenders: Boom. The Brexit Backlash starts to hit.

[RedToothBrush]

So it turns out that immigration figures that stated students overstayed were wrong. The home office knew this. And sat on it. Since 2015. Under Theresa.

That smells a bit doesn't it?

Imagine it: "Let's do lunch Paul. I'll cover up and give you a nice immigration story for your front page. In return, crown me PM."

Then tonight BOOM. Labour look like they have made a move. Soft very swishy Brexit. Even less brexity than the Beano Brexit that the Tories have been trying to announce on the quiet over the summer whilst Brexiteers are on holiday.

amp.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit
Labour makes dramatic shift on Brexit and single market
Party opens clear divide with Tories, with support for free movement and paying into EU budgets for up to four years

Labour is to announce a dramatic policy shift by backing continued membership of the EU single market beyond March 2019, when Britain leaves the EU, establishing a clear dividing line with the Tories on Brexit for the first time.

In a move that positions it decisively as the party of “soft Brexit”, Labour will support full participation in the single market and customs union during a lengthy “transitional period” that it believes could last between two and four years after the day of departure, it is to announce on Sunday.

This will mean that under a Labour government the UK would continue to abide by the EU’s free movement rules, accept the jurisdiction of the European court of justice on trade and economic issues, and pay into the EU budget for a period of years after Brexit, in the hope of lessening the shock of leaving to the UK economy. In a further move that will delight many pro-EU Labour backers, Jeremy Corbyn’s party will also leave open the option of the UK remaining a member of the customs union and single market for good, beyond the end of the transitional period.

Why would Labour suddenly do this? It's not just because of the youth vote. What about their leave voters?

Faisal Islam on the subject:
2. On Labour Leavers is very very interesting and involves quite the psephological judgement re the election....
...the calculation appears to be that Labour Leave voters had the chance to vote for Theresa May's brand of Brexit, and bar 5 seats, said No
Was that because Lableave voters were already signalled "hard Brexit"? Or many millions such voters much more concerned about other things?

Have Labour been polling their voters on this?

Theresa has also apparently set her sell by date: Friday 30th August 2019.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-sets-date-shell-quit-11061894.amp
Theresa May sets date she'll quit as Prime Minister - giving herself time to see Britain through Brexit

The longer the transition and the squishier it gets, the more the more you wonder.

Mr Barnier will enjoy his coffee and newspapers tomorrow as he prepares for round two of Brexit talks starting next week.

The question on his mind most: Will David Davis remember to bring his notes this time?

Lurking - how odd. Though I guess it's like the NMW legislation now

Prettybird, I don't think he is suggesting that at all but just that he sees little point in learning European languages as most of Europe speak English anyway. Where on earth do you get the idea that Brexiters would love to dumb down the masses? why on earth would we?

I agree Olenna.

My English is better as a result of learning French and Latin. There has also been research that learning a foreign language has other benefits beyond the cultural ones; it has a positive impact physiologically on brain development and helps with other subjects like Maths (which arguably is just another "language" if only I could have got ds to see that as he loves Maths and hated French )

Just to pick up on a few things before I have to dash off

• I'm not particularly arsed about the Royal Mail either. I just mentioned it lest anyone assume I worship at the alter of Jeremy Corbyn and his wonderful manifesto.

• Someone mentioned that the UK is no longer winning EU research grants. This is emphatically not the case for ERC grants –we got the most of any country last year: erc.europa.eu/projects-figures/erc-funded-projects. What may have happened is that leads in multinational H2020 proposals have stopped approaching UK institutions as partners, but that's a different story.

• Indeed New Labour didn't do enough of the kind of investment I'm talking about. PFI is a particular embarrassment, basically like buying a house on a credit card when you could have taken out a mortgage instead...

Corcory - I said the rich Brexiteers. If our young people are not educated or have anything beyond basic skills, then they can't ask for more money and widen their horizons. They become classic factory/call centre fodder , while those at top benefit quite literally from their efforts - along the lines of the Singapore low tax/low regulation model (although as Ron had pointed out, Singapore is a member of the ASEAN trading bloc and benefits from its close links with its trading partners).

His argument is specious as it ignores all the other benefits of language learning. The fact that other people "will" speak English is arrogant at worst and lazy at best. It devalues the role of education to improve the lives of all in our country.

• Oh, and if the new stats on international student overstays means I can stop spying on them without risking jail, I would be delighted.

prettybird both my DDs took/are taking a MFL at GCSE. DD1 isn't interested in taking it further (but will be learning Dutch for Uni). DD2 really enjoys language and words. She has a word bank and studies the etymology of all the words in it. Being interested in language, its origins, its cultural influences and its future is probably going to be a career for her. That Simon Jenkins article is appalling.

But Prettybird why do you think rich Brexiters have a different moral code than any other person? By virtue of having more money doesn't make someone an uncaring prick!

DemocratsUK‏
@TheUKDemocrat
Replying to @BrexitBin @acgrayling
Timing is everything in politics. This will help bring down the government- Labour minority with SNP support will not deliver Brexit

Getting busy over there: Matthew Paris of mrs t fame has said he'd support Starmer's plan and vote labour.

DemocratsUK‏ @TheUKDemocrat 7h7 hours ago
DemocratsUK Retweeted Nigel Farage
The fact that Nigel hates it is proof that it's the right move

Lurking - how odd. Though I guess it's like the NMW legislation now

Odd ? The looks I got when I questioned it in 1986. It was SOP for the civil service. Posts - certainly entry positions - were graded on age.

So at 20 years old, I would have got £1,000/£1,500 p.a. less than someone who was 21. I knew this, as the person they did hire was from the same course as me (a rather specialist IT one).

He hated it, and couldn't wait to get out. They wanted to implement a system to move files across disparate computer systems. Despite the fact there was (and still is) an industrial-grade free piece of software called KERMIT to do the job, the CCTA (yes, them) had to develop a totally proprietary system in house at a cost of millions.

At the time I was probably one of the countries KERMIT experts, having spent a year working with people at Lancaster, and Columbia universities.

Incidentally that work - in 1986 - was done via email. Which is why - 31 years on - I get so wound up with the lack of email generally, but especially in business.

I suspect my parting comment that they may as well use astrology to determine pay grades didn't go down well. Perhaps I should have said it in Latin ???

.

Lurking - if I ever find it again, I'll post an excerpt from the NI Civil Service Handbook that I acquired about 20 years ago. It tickled me because it set out everything that an officer at each grade was entitled to, right down to the square footage of the office, size of desk, quality of carpet, number of wastepaper bins and how many sherry glasses in the permanent secretary's drinks cabinet.

howabout, you said:-

The London housing market is completely out of step with the London let alone the UK underlying economy (in Kensington average earnings may be £120k but average house prices are £1.2m. In more "affordable" boroughs the earnings multiple is closer to 20. For the rest of the UK it is between 4 and 5

The last sentence is utter tosh.

4 to 5 is not even the average.

My point was simply, if you are going to quote things as fact, then it's preferable that they are correct.

I live in an affordable borough. It's more like 7-8 here. Not that it's great, but nowhere near 20. Hence affordable.

Olenna in response, your citing of examples that are from years ago, partly entirely the result of U.K. Government policy, and clearly not even that significant at the time, since closing the loopholes made little dent in the immigration figures. I can see no justification for the degree of harassment and control now. As I recall many of those "droves" of people you quoted disappeared into the black economy anyway, something they no doubt still do on overstayed tourist visa. Have you any other justification for Mays harassment of a group of people who contribute to our economy and also raise standardsand widen the experience of students, even if they have fallen pray to the delusion that English is the only language and cultural awareness they need...

I do remember the bewilderment that with promotion through the public sector grades there came a drinks Cabinet of increasing diversity and %alcholol. I broke through the glass ceiling and suddenly a man in a brown overall was appearing each month and adding more bottles of sherry, whisky and gin to my grey metal drinks Cabinet. It has zero business benefit.....

whatwouldrondo - I was clear that I was talking about issues from years ago, I didn't claim that they were happening now. I don't know if they are or not. I mentioned them because they provide the context for the current policies and processes regarding international students in the UK.

I think that the public sector drinks cabinet is increasingly rare (like personal offices or decent carpet, for that matter). The FCO still has an enviable wine cellar, though the in-house bar was refurbished into a canteen only 10 years or so ago

(By an accident of birth, half of the population can expect to be paid abut 75% of what the other half can expect to be paid...)

...though ironically, the civil service tends to be an equal opportunity employer...

Olenna Context from years ago, but how is that justification?

Math Yup fair access to the whiskey but not the boy's clubs it serviced. To be fair alcohol was banned by the end of the 90s when they realised the last 4 hours of the day could be as productive as the first

Thank you for the new thread Red.

I have only just arrived back from my holidays in Europe. Shockingly even some complete strangers pitied me for having to live in England as a non-native. Cool Britannia no more and

Labour's new soft Brexit stance has made me feel a bit happier. It also proves that we have to keep up pressure on our MPs, otherwise remainers are ignored.

whatwouldrondo - I'm not sure what you are looking for. Almost everyone who was involved in the international student sector would agree that it was subject to abuse in previous years, hence the succession of tighter policies and processes. We can't look at the situation now without understanding what it used to be.

Elena - that is very depressing indeed.

Yes indeed. The UK could learn so much from Greece - a shining example of the resounding success that sums up all that is wonderful about the EU

I'm finding it increasingly odd that some cite Greece as an example of a country which wants to leave the EU. Anti EU Golden Dawn does enjoy 50% support in their police who supported the Generals' coup and who may or may not have injured/incarcerated our missing remainer dad. Golden Dawn consistently fails to win many seats in national elections, like UKIP.

Despite Greece's huge economic problems, and wonderful infrastructure build in the last 30 years with EU redistributive programme, it voted to remain in EU; elected a socialist government; focused government aid on the poorest citizens; welcomes refugees despite all.

And retained a culture of civility.

Greeks have too recent a memory of ( externally imposed) fascism to elect them again.