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Brexit

Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

976 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 12:39

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

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Cailleach1 · 10/07/2017 00:48

Does May's relatively desultory offer to EU citizens post Brexit have the desired effect? Has it used them as cards and made it look like the EU are the unreasonable ones? Having nothing else prepared, can the Con's flounce off and say it wasn't them?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-european-citizens-theresa-may-plan-damp-squib-european-parliament-guy-verhofstatdt-a7832246.html

Cailleach1 · 10/07/2017 00:54

A propos my earlier link wrt the Aus/US trade deal which was negotiated and signed in one year and which the Aussies regret. Of course, Trump talked about the very good trade deal which the UK could sign quickly. Very good for who? Can this rudderless (maybe also knowingly damaging) governance get much worse?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/theresa-may-not-rush-uk-us-trade-deal-president-cbi-paul-drechsler-a7832266.html

HesterThrale · 10/07/2017 07:32

I'm not sure Cailleach1. As GuyV points out, even the Voteleave manifesto said the UK would 'treat EU citizens no less favourably than at present.' As the EU can reject any deal proposals, the UK will just have to think again.

As her approach to other parties today has proved, she's run out of ideas. Or, wants to share the blame when it all goes titsup.

PurplePeppers · 10/07/2017 08:14

The problem with May approaching Corbyn is that he might actually try to help her achieve Brexit (against most of his supporters' wishes).

Yep that's my worry. For whatever reason, I don't trust him regarding Brexit, not even to get the soft Brexit he is supposed to be happy with.

Re the FTA between Australia and the US, this was done to support a politician in Australia.... a bit like supporting TM so yes they basically agreed to whatever the US wanted to put it through like we would do if there was such an agreement??
There is a reason why agreement est like this take years to be signed. They are complex. You need to spend time looking at all the details if you don't want to end up much worse.

PurplePeppers · 10/07/2017 08:15

Does anyone knows what has been JC answer to TM call of pulling together?

ElenaGreco123 · 10/07/2017 08:39

Another one not trusting Corbyn. My guess is answer is no, in a less polite manner. He does not want responsibility for Brexit. It is only power play for him as well.

Peregrina · 10/07/2017 09:00

“We may not agree on everything, but through debate and discussion – the hallmarks of our Parliamentary democracy – ideas can be clarified and improved and a better way forward found."

This is a bit rich coming from her! Seeing how the previous Government with the sole exception of Ken Clarke, always did what the Whips told them to do. All the replies from my then Tory MP prattled about 'the will of the people' plus the latest soundbite - there was no evidence that this MP having voted Remain was championing the Remain cause (until a little bleat about having voted Remain just as the election was called, when she realised that her constituents might unseat her.)

If we had been having this debate over the last year, the 48% who didn't want Brexit wouldn't have been ignored; we might have begun to thrash out what sort of Brexit we would accept and staying in the EEA, despite comments from some of the Brexiters on these threads, is not staying in the EU. It would have been an expensive way and second best way but would probably have satisfied a genuine majority. I can't really say how angry I am about her statement.

ElenaGreco123 · 10/07/2017 09:08

Brexit means breakfast: A "no deal" WTO tariff shock could push up the cost of a full English

www.cityam.com/268113/brexit-means-breakfast-no-deal-wto-tariff-shock-could-push

Sostenueto · 10/07/2017 09:08

Desperation on Mays part me thinks.

twofingerstoEverything · 10/07/2017 09:13

Shoppers clueless about Brexit effects

Surprise!

SapphireStrange · 10/07/2017 09:20

I don't trust Corbyn a bit either. And Labour are generally so disunited and such a shambles at the moment; I don't think they could step up.

PurplePeppers · 10/07/2017 09:26

From two article
But he added it was "very clear" shoppers would face "higher prices, less choice and poorer quality".

That has already happened where I live.
Less choice in what to buy (eg vegetables or different brands of the same product, such as coffee) all replaced by supermarket brand only (obvioulsy cheaper)
But overall price of the shopping has still gone up.

whatwouldrondo · 10/07/2017 09:28

This however looks promising, the all party group on EU relations. I hope Chukka and Anna are good at What's Apping as good as the group wank of the 64 Brexiteers

Peregrina · 10/07/2017 09:30

But he added it was "very clear" shoppers would face "higher prices, less choice and poorer quality".

That has already happened where I live.

Have people made the connection? This is because the £ has declined in value, which happened immediately after the Brexit vote. There have been one or two small increases but nothing significant. Are Brexiteers still arguing that this is a necessary correction to the £ being over-valued?

PurplePeppers · 10/07/2017 09:44

I don't think most people ahve realised, which is what the supermarkets wanted. They know they would have been in the firing line if they had all increased their prices accordingly. It would have been about them making things hard to people rather the effect of the £ dropping etc...

The people who realised that are, I think, 'the foodies' type who are attached to a special brand of coffee, etc... notbthe Ines whinare atruggloing to do their shopping on £50 a week and are just looking for the cheapest article (a lot of peope where I live - quite deprived area with pockets of MC)

PurplePeppers · 10/07/2017 09:46

Sorry you'll be lucky to understand the last part of my post!!
It was meant to be
'Not the ones who are struggling to do their shopping on £50 a week'

Valentine2 · 10/07/2017 09:50

What's the response from Labour on May's offer? There must be some sort of statement before noon.

ElenaGreco123 · 10/07/2017 10:17

Have people made the connection?

When I was complaining about rising food prices, my ILs totally denied it. I found this really quite shocking, they are not rich at all.

Valentine2 · 10/07/2017 10:19

I started a thread here quite a few months ago. Invited everyone to share what sort of price hike they had observed. I got quite a few comments by Leavers on how my thread was related to Brexit and how it meant this was related to my Remain stance. Hmm

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 10/07/2017 11:06

Waiting to find out how JC is going to respond to Mays plea for support on Brexit.

Mays clearly aware Brexit is going to be hugely damaging to the government. She's hoping Labour get hit with Brexit fallout too.

Gumpendorf · 10/07/2017 11:16

If you're interested in how people are reacting to the Vince Cable's view of Brexit, James O'Brien on LBC now is the place to be.

Apparently we used to own three thirds of the world. Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 10/07/2017 11:50

valentine re your question about tariff-free acccess:

WTO rules prevent the EU from treating the UK post-Brexit any differently to any other "third" country.
So, they can't just let us have tariff-free access, there has to be a trade deal, which normally takes years to negotiate.

Even a transition deal, that would run out after a few years, would take 6 months to write all the specs and then probably another 6 months to have them agreed by the 38 parliaments and regional assemblies of the EU.

Also, merely having "tariff-free access" is completely inadequate for the UK
Such deals typically have quotas and admin costs.
They do not normally include services which are up to 80% of UK exports in value.

It is the NON-tariff barriers - customs, certifications, and inspections - that are the real problem:

Neither the E27 nor the Uk has the infrastructure, trained personnel or even the port space, to suddenly handle the huge increase that would result.

Any manufacturing industry that has components and raw materials criss-crossing national borders within the EU - delays of umpteen hours at customs,
Any agricultural exports would require certification and inspection

BigChocFrenzy · 10/07/2017 11:52

for specific detail, Leaver Richard North lists some likely disastrous consequences of non-tariff barriers, i.e. any deal not of the EEA / EFTA type:

www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86405

"May's decision to leave its Single Market.
the disruption to our trade would not just be a car crash or a train wreck, it would be a whole fleet of jumbo jets crashing down on our entire economy."

eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86370
"One can genuinely see a state of emergency being declared, with the Army called out to escort truck-loads of food to besieged supermarkets"

www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86375

"chaos at our ports"
"bare shelves in our supermarkets"

LurkingHusband · 10/07/2017 12:11

I imagine the price of unicorn steak would fall though ?

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