Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

[RedToothBrush]

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

I am also public sector, Bigly

In a field threatened by Brexit, so double whammy

Ah well, looks like we will both be homeless together. I'll make you a quilt to huddle under if you like?

German industry has warned Britain not to rely on its help in securing a good Brexit deal

The newspaper headlines should start the headlines with ' Brexiteers talking boll*cks when they state the German car industry will insist EU give a special deal to the UK after Brexit'. Or less cursing 'No basis for Brexiteers' claim German car makers will force EU to give special deal to a non-EU UK.

The British media never seem to analyse the statements uttered by these people. The German carmakers or prosecco producers or camembert producers have not made these claims. The Brexiteers have. On what basis?

It occurred to me that these Eurosceptics or Europhobics care less for the people of the UK than they resent the EU. The rights of citizens is not really an issue for them. If they don't care about the Brits abroad, why would they need to give rights to EU citizens? All pawns in their game.

I've had to stop watching the handmaids tale
Just too close to home atm with the rolling back of women's rights in the US and eastern europe/Turkey
Scary, scary times

The Australia-US free trade agreement, AUSFTA was negotiated and signed within a year. It was to prop up a prime minister. Australia seemingly bitterly resent it and were hoping for the trans pacific deal to supersede it. Of course, Trump has killed that dead in the water.

"Deals that are struck in haste for primarily political reasons carry risk of substantial economic damage."

www.eastasiaforum.org/2015/02/08/the-costs-of-australias-free-trade-agreement-with-america/

NHS privatision is unpopular,

A sad thing about this is that it has quietly been going on by stealth, without our realising it, because things are still branded as NHS.

"So the agreement joins a long and sad list of El Dorados, loudly promised by governments, that failed to materialise.

As with some other central episodes of the Howard government - such as children overboard and Iraqi weapons of mass destruction - it raises the question of where self-deception stopped and a deliberate public con job began."

www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/mind-the-gap-benefits-from-free-trade-havent-quite-gone-the-distance-20100302-pg6p.html

That could almost apply to the Brexit Utopia.

And of interest wrt the NHS and medicines.

theconversation.com/how-the-us-trade-deal-undermined-australias-pbs-32573

One of the many problems with a second referendum would be that it opens the door to a second Scottish referendum, surely?

I've always been anti a 2nd referendum for all the same reasons I was anti a 1st one. It's too big a subject for a referendum and will be just as nasty and divisive. Also, when would it be? October 2018? That'd be when transitional terms are being agreed (which may end up lasting got years) so what would the question be?

I'm public sector, an EU citizen, in health research in the NHS. How many whammies do I get?

Fortunately we are mortgage free.

I really can't make up my mind about a 2nd ref. I agree with all the things against it, but worry that unless we have a second one with a clear remain win the brexiteers will all ways be able to claim they won the vote and have the mandate. Anyone wanting to stop Brexit will always be going against the 'will of the people' unless there is an undeniable demonstration that the will of the people has changed. On the other hand I really don't want another vote at all. I just don't know on this one.

I don't see a referendum vote as any more binding than a GE vote.
No political decision should be fixed in time

No Parliament can bind its successors - that's an important part of our constitution

• although of course it can make it difficult and more expensive for its successors to reverse things

e.g. Brexit - where negotiations to rejoin would take years and would probably not include all current optouts.
Privatization of rail, utilities etc because of the cost of renationlisation - international law, not just EU law, makes it illegal to nationalize without fair compensation.
Or of course Labour signing contracts buying 2 aircraft carriers to give jobs in Labour constituencies.

I have a feeling that for Tories, the cleanest way out right now is going to be another EU referendum. I know it sounds stupid but this is how the current lot of Tories will consider it all I think, if sufficiently scared.
I am not sure whether they are sufficiently scared or not yet. On one hand, Mogg is being touted covertly. On the other, YouGov poll must have unnerved them a bit. So I think that on balance, a second referendum could be power saver for Tories once they are scared enough.

It depends on what they prefer: Corbyn and edge cliff Brexit or just clinging on to power and no Brexit.
I could be completely wrong but that is just what I perceive right now.

The EU would probably require that Parliament make any decision about a deal:
they wouldn't waste time & effort on hammering out a deal that might be rejected in a Refeendum.

So, it would have to be a Remain or Leave on WTO / no deal terms.

If is still a cowardly copout.
Much better that Parliament makes a decision - but if Corbyn genuinely joins the Tories on key Brexit votes, then a few Tory & Labour rebels at critical times won't be enough: it would take a mass rebellion on both sides of the HoC

It would be difficult for the Tory party to sink any lower in my assessment of their incompetence and cowardice.

However, if they chicken out of their responsibility to make decisions and put the country through a 2nd divisive referendum - when we know Russia, Aaron Banks, Cambridge Analytica and the far right will all be stirring the pot again - then they will sink through the toilet in my estimation.

I don't see that happening, considering it is all about the will of the people so far. 🙄 we need a very good eye roll smiley are Mumsnet!
there is no way we are getting any sort of agreement in this hung parliament. We really need either another referendum, no matter how bad a taste that brings to mouth, or we need Corbyn to speak out loud and clear. I don't think he will speak loud and clear for a long time yet. There just isn't enough pressure yet (from public I mean).

However, if they chicken out of their responsibility to make decisions and put the country through a 2nd divisive referendum - when we know Russia, Aaron Banks, Cambridge Analytica and the far right will all be stirring the pot again - then they will sink through the toilet in my estimation.

I think that Corbyn is waiting for enough reassurance on that too. It will be disastrous for either of the two parties to not listen to this "will of people". Yes it was all screwed up but it is our screw up now. we need a large turn in tide to be sure these same meddlers won't be successful again. That is very important at this stage. Tory or Labour, this is my country. And I would want only those things done now that have been extremely carefully measured up. Enough messing about so far. Hope both sides understand this though Tories are giving all signs of not getting this even now.

We need both parties to come to an agreement on Brexit - we have always needed this:
Something with such overwhelming consequences for the country longterm should not be controlled by one party only.

Either both party leaders need to agree - unlikely that Corbyn will ever agree with any Tory PM - or sufficiently large numbers of MPs on both sides need to ignore their leaders and come together on Brexit.

That's not a new party, just a temporary unofficial alliance of one critical issue that decides the country's future for the next generation.

Over 2,400 UK dead: (Times paywall)
May urged to order inquiry into tainted blood ‘disaster’

< an example of where doing business with the USA and their much lower regulations has killed thousands of British people >

< also an example of corruption and coverup afterwards in the UK >

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/may-urged-to-order-inquiry-into-tainted-blood-disaster-2phlpznx3

"Theresa May is under pressure to order a Hillsborough-style inquiry into a scandal involving contaminated blood after opposition leaders took the unprecedented step of writing a joint letter to the prime minister demanding action.
....
The letter, which describes the contaminated blood scandal as one of the “worst peacetime disasters in our country’s history”,
warns: “We believe those affected have a right to know what went wrong; and why.
....
“Whenever public disasters of this kind take place, government has a fundamental duty to support those affected in getting the answers they need; to disclose everything they know;
and to ensure that officials are called to account for their actions.
We regret that for many decades the victims of the contaminated blood scandal have been denied this right.”
.....
If the prime minister fails to act, the former health secretary
Andy Burnham has said he will hand to police on July 26 a dossier of evidence that he claims exposes
a “criminal cover-up on an industrial scale”.

The letter goes on to warn: “Among many other considerations,
it is alleged that victims’ medical details were tampered with to hide the cause of their infections;

that documents relating to the scandal were destroyed by Department of Health officials as part of a cover-up;
and that patients were not told of the risks . . . once the dangers became known.”
.....
At least 2,400 people in Britain, including many haemophiliacs, died from hepatitis C and Aids-related illnesses after receiving NHS-supplied imported blood products
riddled with the hepatitis and HIV viruses in the 1970s and 1980s
.....
Much of the plasma used to make the clotting agent factor VIII, which haemophiliacs lack, came from donors such as prison inmates in America who had sold their blood."
.....
Jason Evans, 27, whose father, Jonathan, died in 1993 HIV-positive with and hepatitis C after being given contaminated blood products, said he hoped May would set up a full public inquiry. “This fight has gone on for far too long and too many have died trying to fight it,” he said.

Evans, a marketing consultant from Coventry, spent 12 months gathering thousands of documents through freedom of information requests and from the National Archives.
He unearthed papers that suggest
officials knew as early as 1981 that patients receiving blood transfusions were falling sick.
The supply of contaminated blood was not stopped until 1986.

unlikely that Corbyn will ever agree with any Tory PM

He has been happy to agree with May that Brexit should happen so far, in fact his seeming agreement with a Tory PM on brexit has been criticized pretty heavily on this thread.

Personally I would like to see Corbyn agreeing less with a Tory PM right now!

No matter how many MPs form this alliance, there is no way public (or a big chunk of public who will have the sway on the ground) will listen to them unless their history is consistently reliable. i can't see that happening. This was the major mistake of Clegg and Co in this election. Appearances and voting histories are at a few clicks away and they thought youth will forget the betrayal of tuition fees over Brexit. It is far deeper than that.
Tories, considering the number of mutations in political stupidity/incompetency it takes to produce Cameron/BoJo/Gove/May, aren't going to do that either in large numbers. There are multiple actors in that.
So it again boils down to what public is thinking and how big is the margin till we drop pretences and call a second referendum which will make me happy to no end.
It is far better to look like a nation that keeps having elections and refrenda than to look like one that had one and fell off the cliff to keep appearances.

The supply of contaminated blood was not stopped until 1986
That's around the time the infamous saga of the HIV virus discovery and diagnostic tests' patents took place. Funny conincidences. That is Trump's special relationship idea I am sure.