Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

[RedToothBrush]

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

Taking a day off.

But This:

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
Trump with May: "no country cld possibly be closer than our countries. We will do v big deal, a v powerful deal. Trade will be a big factor"
President Trump: PM May and I have developed a very special relationship and trade will be a v big factor between our 2 countries
Trump meeting PM at G20 "very, very big deal, a very powerful deal...done very, very quickly. PM May and I have a very special relationship"
So the US-UK "trade deal" being worked on from January was not about tariffs, rules of origin etc, more replicating regulatory recognition..
Ie replacing arrangements currently dealt with at EU-US level, eg Euratom US Treaty nuclear trade, mutual rec qualifications, roaming
Negotiating separate comprehensive trade deal while still in EU would violate principle of "sincere cooperation" -for now US-UK more limited

Oscar D Torson‏*@odtorson*
roaming? the US does not even have roaming across states lines afaik....

Anton Muscatelli‏*@UofGVC*
Indeed - hardly a comprehensive trade deal.

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
... Number 10 said PM & Trump "discussed parameters" of trade negotiations within and out of the EU.. some things can be done before Brexit
.. previously meant UK continuing agreements with US on eg Open Skies and nuclear trade, also mobile roaming & qualifications standards
While the trade discussion was "all positive" - Number 10 confirmed that climate change "wasn't discussed" in May-Trump bilateral
Number 10 confirm that the timing on a UK-US trade deal will be "as soon as possible" after leaving the EU ie 2019 - talks can prepare tho

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
PM meets Indian PM Modi, both argue for deeper trade relationship.."work together to put a concrete plan in place post-Brexit"... #G20Summit
... that sounds rather distant, significantly Number 10 confirmed no discussions on liberalising work visa regime, key FTA demand for India

Faisal Islam‏********@faisalislam**
Source inside G20 says it was Macron who launched the most staunch defence of global free trade by brandishing his IPhone to the Summit
Macron says his IPhone was "a product of multilateral trade" system designed in US, made in China, bought in France.. not bilateralism
In comments aimed at Trump, Macron also said that protectionism leads to nationalism and then war. Though POTUS had left by this point

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
Merkel: not optimistic on US Paris c. change deal. "that's why we agreed two different paragraphs": G19 say "irreversible" regret US exit
MErkel: we amended the declaration and it says v clearly that US underlines v clearly what they want, & Europeans say what they want...
Merkel says 19 of the G20 "agree" on climate change position, but the US states its position
Merkel asked if jeopardised police by holding G20 in Hamburg: cant accept situation where in certain cities you cant hold these conferences
On Trump, Merkel: Don't want to hide it ..still a difficulty to discuss trade issues. We as Europeans have to take our fate in our own hands

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
So CETA will apply provisionally to UK as part of EU from this September

European Commission‏*@EU*_Commission
EU and Canada agree to date for the provisional application of #CETA: 21 September 2017
europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-1959_en.htm

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
PM: "Like other leaders here I'm dismayed by the US decision to pull out of Paris". She says she urges US to rejoin.

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
PM tells me that World Trade Organisation should be reformed, to help address fairness of global trade matters
Quote from PM to me: "trade brings prosperity growth and jobs...but also I did say we want the WTO reformed in some ways so it works better"
"we want rules based framework working as effectively as it can be" - WTO reform is also very much on White House agenda
So Trump, SoS Tillerson, Commerce Sec Wilbur Ross have all talked about reform/more of World Trade Organisation too

foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/02/trump-takes-aim-at-the-wto/amp/
Trump Takes Aim at the WTO

Which part represents the biggest load of crap for the UK?

Causasua‏*@garrettfitz*
Damn WTO with all its rules and regulations, there are plenty of other planets waiting to sign trade deals with the UK

So before the trade talks with WTO members even get started the UK already wants to change the rules - anyone seeing a pattern here?

How long before the UK holds an advisory referendum and flounces off - or should TM just call one in 6 weeks and avoid the problems she wants to cure with the Great Reform Bill...

it's a bit pointless bashing Hammond unless there is another Tory chancellor that you'd prefer.

Your saying I should shut up about all the bad stuff because he is doing one not terrible thing and you can't think of a better option. We should just ignore the damage being done because we are so thrilled he isn't falling over himself to support brexit. I'm afraid silence will be taken as approval. Even if you support his views on Brexit that doesn't mean we stop bashing him over the other stuff or the Tories will assume we support that too.

It is perfectly possible to say 'i am glad he is showing some reluctance on Brexit, but I will continue to fight his attacks on our public services'.

Call me cynic, but it sounds to me like May is setting up the WTO as something to blame for all our magic unicorn trade deals not appearing or not actually being that super after brexit.

I think some Brexiteers just hate the idea of the EU. It is rules based and they won't lower themselves to do teamwork. Or the soft power. What is wrong with the EU is that it not run by the whims of the UK. They want to be the boss of everyone else. Not just a partner.

I think they would happily settle for being the 51st state of the US. I also think that the next 10 or 20 years will show just how hollow the talk of the 'Special relationship' is.

Hmm, I think we're arguing about slightly different things here bigly as I was originally replying to justs post about Corbyns position on Brexit rather than your reply to Lala on Hammond.
Had to go back over the posts as I couldn't work what we were arguing about- I am currently very sleep deprived.
I am in the Hammond fan club relative to other Tory options. Which isn't saying much.

I'm starting to think some Brexiteers think that Star Trek is real and we ditch all these mean earthlings and strike up trade deals with the Klingons, who have always been misunderstood. Plus, they would buy a lot of arms.

Brexiteers and Klingons? That willy waving contest could get dangerous. I doubt much trade would go on.

And god can you IMAGINE Brexiteers coming across Vulcans?

How on earth would they explain the EU referendum using logic?

bigly Hammond can continue the Tory policies of cutting public services, benefits and many other harsh measures against he poor.
However, nothing he or any Tory can do ^ - in practice^ - is irreversible in the next GE, except Brexit, which would probably take several years to reverse.

Although the Tory hard right - still a minority - would like to abolish the NHS, it would be politically impossible unless there were a total economic meltdown.
I don't think even Brexit would get bad enough to abolish the NHS, just to accelerate cutting it.

All could be reversed in the following GE, if the voters choose a different party as the next govt

JC is talking about renationalising whole industries.
Labour could certainly reverse any NHS cuts or privatization they wished.
The Blair govts pumped additional funds into the NHS, which fully compensated for 18 years of underfunding by the Tories.

We should keep concerns realistneed

The obvious circumstances that would prevent a Labour govt with a good majority from reversing cuts, is of course if they inherited a crashed economy, i.e. hard Brexit.

As with individuals, a country that is in decent financial shape has far more options.

I see yet another thread from a Moggy fan.
They want him as PM
(of course, could be his nanny posting)

Baffling how so many people who dislike Tory policies go weak at the knees over the Bertie Wooster type eccentric aristocrat

He seems to have taken the place of Boris in the affections of those who reflexively tug a forelock

I'd love to see a conversation between Philip Davies and Spock. There would be a lot of silent eyebrow raising.

Key Conservative parties in the original 6 countries of the then EEC were influenced by Catholicism in their economic and social policy.

e.g. like Merkel's CDU (Christian Democratic Union) which was formed after WW2 to embrace both protestants and catholics in a right of center party, but was heavily influenced by Catholic social and political teachings.
So her party is much more centrist on funding welfare and public services than UK Tories, but less socially liberal, e.g. on equal marriage or abortion, than many Tories.

I've worked on and off in Germany since 1987 and I've always felt the CDU has totally different "flavour" to the Tory party: like a compassionate & kindly but rather old-fashioned vicar vs a flashy spiv.

This "Catholic influence" on European Conserviative parties feels too furrin for many Tories

They also never felt happy within the EU Parliamentary conservative grouping and Cameron in fact instructed his Tory MEPs to leave that group, much to Merkel's's annoyance - she wanted to maximsie the conservative grouping.

Like everyone else, since July 2016 I've been trying to figure out Theresa May. My immediate view a year back was she didn't really have much in the way of personal political values beyond sitting within a broad "Conservative" umbrella and she would adopt any expedient position if it would suit.

Her "Leaders from several members of the Group of 20 economic powers expressed a "strong desire" to forge "ambitious new bilateral trading relationships" with Britain after it leaves the European Union" today makes me realise she'll say any old shit to keep stalling while waiting for something to turn up that will rescue her. Effectively, she's waiting for event X to arrive so she can say "oh, UK electorate, this means that we must go for Brexit deal Y".

Brown, Blair, Major, Thatcher, I can't think of any PM in nearly 40 years who was as useless as this. (Cameron is excluded for obvious reasons.)

it is a systemic problem in the UK constitution, which fails basic tests of either democracy or constitutional good order.
Which delivers consistently poor government/policy disasters, as well as being exposed to potential illiberal minorities (of left or right).
Those problems existed well before the 2017 election, as many observed.

This^^ from George Peretz.
100% true.

Lilico's comments suggest why so many people still vote Tory - blind faith that the Tory party is the party representing innate British (English?) common sense, John Bull, etc., and people prepared to ignore the swivel eyed revolutionaries in the party since the neo-con coup of Margaret Thatcher. There are way too many unexamined assumptions and prejudices. Or maybe people have short memories (maybe social history is not taught in schools...) and can't imagine life in 1920s and 30s Britain or the impulse behind the creation of the welfare state or the huge consensus behind it when it was created.
..............

From the IfG link upthread:
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/policy-reinvention-leads-huge-waste-and-little-progress
Their report urges: -
"Departments use tools (such as digital records) to better capture what they already know, and aren’t forced to start from scratch on every new policy idea.
Clear lines of accountability, making the senior civil servant in charge of policy making in each department responsible for maintaining institutional memory.
Making it standard practice to gather evidence including of previous reforms as part of the development of new policy proposals.
Greater scrutiny by select committees, requiring the government to include a statement on the evidence behind policy decisions as a routine part of enquires.
A greater role for the Treasury in assessing the costs of organisational change."

Gobsmacked that there is such disorder and squandering of the public purse.

"German industry has warned Britain not to rely on its help in securing a good Brexit deal,

in a stark intervention that strikes a blow at the government’s EU departure plans."

They've said this umpteen times, but DD and other hardline Brexiters still don't want to believe them.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/08/german-industry-warns-uk-over-brexit

"Two of Germany’s biggest industry groups have told the Observer that their main concern during the Brexit process is protecting the single market for the remaining 27 members, even if this harms trade with Britain.
.....
Dieter Kempf, president of the BDI, the federation of German industries, said:
“Defending the single market, a key European project, must be the priority for the European Union.
Europe must maintain the integrity of the single market and its four freedoms: goods, capital, services, and labour.
.....
Ingo Kramer, president of the confederation of German employers’ associations (BDA), told the Observer:
“The single market is one of the major assets of the EU.
Access to the single market requires the acceptance of all four single market freedoms."

Police cuts ‘jeopardising hunt for potential terrorists’

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/08/police-cuts-jeopardising-hunt-potential-terrorists

"Robert Quick, Britain’s former counter-terrorism chief, said government cuts to police funding had damaged attempts to prevent attacks."
Other former officers say cuts have shrunk teams that used to be ‘eyes and ears’ on the ground"

This article from a few days ago,
generated a twitter thread Ministers dash business hopes of transitional Brexit deal

Fiona Jayne @ weareoneeu
Davis tells business it's hard Brexit or else a 'backlash' - sounds like something Arron Banks would threaten
Cummings tweeted this week that Davis was under the influence of Banks, hence Brexit would be a shambles. How much influence are we talking?

I think this is the tweet referred to. Tweetd 30th June

Odysseanproject @ Odysseanproject
CC all the morons, especially MPs like David Davis, who listened to bullshitter Arron Banks on the referendum
How the businesses of Brexit campaigner ‘King’ Arron Banks overlap

Fiona Jayne @ weareoneeu
Banks brags regularly about his 1million Westmonster / LeaveEU followers that he would launch against Gov if anything other than hard Brexit
The Westmonster / LeaveEU followers who I've encountered are quick to talk of violence, riots & even civil war if they don't get hard Brexit
So not only did Brexit leaders use foul means to secure their vote, they've probably already laid the groundwork for civil unrest.
Question is, how will Davis get that Genie back in the bottle when the clear majority want to Remain? Democracy must win out over threats

I'm starting to wonder if Banks has dirt on people. If so, what, whom and how?

I'm not particularly fussed by the idea of their being civil unrest is Brexit is reversed. Mainly because I can easily see civil unrest because it's not reversed.

I do find the idea that Davis is somehow influenced by Banks troubling though.

BigChoc I would say that in Europe there is some sort of rejection for the US model of leaving the reins to businesses. All for the businesses (and those who own them) and nothing for the people (who don't have the money).
Whereas the UK seems to be quite keen on following that stance as a working political model.
Cue for many assertions on how capitalism is and has always been the only model that allows for 'democracy' and the 'economy' and wealth

BBC politics Europe , interesting comment from Sajjad Karim MEP when discussing how UK MEP's are being treated by their European colleagues post referendum , he says previously people would automatically say yes , now they go away and think about it . This was backed up by Clare Moody MEP .

People saying yes , a bit at odds with the idea of the EU doing things to the poor little UK without any input at all

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/racist-hate-crimes-surge-to-record-high-after-brexit-vote-new-figures-reveal-a7829551.html

So hate and racial crimes are at an all time high.
Who would have believed? I'm pretty sure i have been told by many People leavers this was NOT happening, was just a blip etc... just after the referendum.
We are no living in a society that is more intolerant, more racist than it was before. If just that, that would be a pretty bad outcome for that referendum :(