Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

[RedToothBrush]

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

I wonder if Boris is planning his 'Churchill' moment (crossing the floor of the house/change from leave to remain)? 'I tried for Brexit, on reflection it is not working, so I am going to get best deal for UK - bye Theresa hello No 10'.

He did 'famously' write 2 articles (pro & anti Brexit) before committing to the leave campaign.

Congrats Mo4D on Oxford!

Both parties delighted to have everyone focus on the money. Goodness knows what unwritten or undisclosed deals were done. Some must have been difficult, even for Cons. Hence the delay in wrapping up.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/letters-prove-parties-paying-lip-service-to-transparency-on-donations-35903959.html

Congrats on Oxford.

Late to the discussion but I have no objection to student loans in principle. I don't think the costs of students in HE should be fully subsidised by (mainly the parents of) those who do not go to University. I do think that tuition fees could be waived in certain sectors such as Medicine and Nursing so long as students sign up to a stipulated length of time working in the NHS (most will work in the NHS anyway). We really don't train enough nurses and need to expand provision fast. I know from experience a number of sixth formers perfectly academically capable of completing a nursing degree, and with fine personal qualities, who failed to get places.
I remember an interview with Vince Cable where he said that when in the Coalition he favoured a graduate tax but felt that the proposed system of loans was pretty similar to a graduate tax so he was OK with it.

Huge congratulations to mother

I wonder if Boris is planning his 'Churchill' moment (crossing the floor of the house/change from leave to remain)? 'I tried for Brexit, on reflection it is not working, so I am going to get best deal for UK - bye Theresa hello No 10

I think Boris is planning something like this too. He's too unpopular at the moment imo.
There needs to be a much bigger push towards Remain before he can come out as having changed his mind regarding Brexit.

3) True, I advocated Leave, but the lack of vision and courage of my parliamentary colleagues has made the process intolerable (DD ????)

Who exactly is he referring to? Before 8th June, the Tories were wholly behind Theresa May, with the exception of Ken Clarke. I had just one too many letters from my then Tory MP about 'the will of the people'. Most of the Labour party were behind TM, including our new Saint Jeremy, (sanctified on 9th June), with about 50 rebels. So is he referring to Theresa May herself? The Maybot, who probably can't function now - where are Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill to make sure she is still plugged into the charger and that the switch is still 'On'?

On the subject of student fees/loans. My recollection is that if you got a Grant, the LEA paid the fees, so it was only foreign students who were hit for the full amount, which was about £1500 p.a. in about 1973/74 from what I remember from the time working in the Registrar's department of a University. The Maintenance Grant was subject to a parental contribution, but had a £50 minimum which everyone got. With some, that's all they got, because their parents refused to make up the grant because - they didn't approve of the son/daughter's choice of course/University/didn't approve of girlfriend/boyfriend/were simply tight wads. You were dependent on them until you were 21 - unless you had been self-supporting for three years. So one girl I knew got married at 19 against her parents wishes. They refused to make up the grant, with the attitude, you're married, it's up to you and your husband to sort things out.

When I did my Bachelor degree 1990-1993 I received no maintenance grant but LEA definitely paid all the tuition fees. I was the first year for student loans. Interest charged at the "preferential" rate of 9.6%.

Congratulations to Mo4D and the smartest junior Dragon!

Oxford!!

Fantastic, very many congratulations to your son

Re student loans

I would have less of a problem with the system if it was 0% repayments

6.7% is taking the fucking piss

And if one more person, who did not have a 50k uni loan, tells me that its nothing to worry about and it isn't a proper debt ....I won't be responsible for my actions

20 years ago children were told debt was bad, loans should be for emergencies and dont buy stuff on the never never

Now we tell them that 50k is nothing, and that if they didnt waste their money on phones and coffee they could easily get on the housing ladder and start a pension

Congrats little dragon

Unrelated to uni, but brexit and patriotism y

@sebdance
Brexit never was about patriotism. True love for your country demands you be realistic about its position and ambitious for its potential.

Congrats MoD!

I am envious of his imminent access to the Mexican chicken paninis from La Croissanterie and the infinite kebab vans I have my priorities in order and I'm not ashamed

Re student loans

DS decided aged 15 he wasn't going to University. We had an evening talk from 3 local Unis at his school, and DS still remembers 2 things.

1. A smarmy "Student Finance Officer" telling all the parents not to worry about their DC going to Uni as "the debts is in their name". I put my habd up and asked what subject they taught, and was told they "weren't academic." I think my comment that I hoped the Uni was didn't make me too popular, but then .,..

2. We had a vice-principal come and talk and tell us about one student who was now aged 23 and earning £40,000 a year working for a bank. I asked how well their STEM graduates did, and how close the bank was to a cure for cancer, which also didn't go down to well.

I found the whole experience deeply depressing. As we left DS said "I can't see myself doing that.". So he didn't. Instead he went to college and (eventually) got a job which hopefully is the first rung on a very exciting career. No debt, renting a flat, starting to have savings, and a shift pattern that allows him lots of skateboarding time.

If he sticks with it, there's every chance his employer would pay for Uni. But then they're a(n enormous) Chinese firm, and have a different take on education.

He's already started to pick up some Chinese, which hasn't gone unnoticed.

As someone who was the first in their family to get a degree, full grant, and who marched in the 80s to keep education free, it breaks my heart, and leaves me feeling our generation fucked it up.

LH - I agree with you entirely, we have messed up a whole generation.

DS constantly reminds me of this, as though we were personally responsible. Which we weren't and can but agree with him, feeling powerless to do much about it. Except voting out the Tory MP was a start.

LH...your lad sounds very sensible.
Ds1 (14) is starting his GCSEs and has just chosen his options.
He was planning to leave at 16 and go down the apprenticeship route, but feels he might like to stay on now.
I am making supportive noises but tbh am very worried about fees.
He has an isa he knows nothing about but by the the time he is 18 it will only have about £11k in it.
Dh and I need to have a chat about saving more I think :(
No way I want him saddled with £50k of debt.
I didn't go it uni...no way I could have afforded it. Parents couldn't help me.
Dhs degree was done though work
Our boys are 5 years apart so if ds1 goes he will just have left when Ds2 is applying...
😖😞

Theresa May will be bold on world stage.

I think Theresa May might well find that the rest of the world does not agree with her.

Well done MoD's DS!

I went to uni just on the cusp of loans and fees (I was the last year not to pay tuition fees, I was able to take out a loan every year I did my undergrad studies, I got a tiny grant in my final year when my brother also went to university) and still left with debt that took me eight years of working in a decently paid graduate role to pay off. I find it terrifying what we require of our young students now, and that's without thinking about the dearth of decent graduate schemes now and house prices

Pain - is la croissanterie the one opposite the station? If so it's closed down - the owners decided to go back to their country of origin :-(

Fabulous news MotherOfFourDragons!

Make sure your DS looks at financial awards available from his college. I changed my main sporting discipline slightly, to a Varsity sport, and get at least £500 a term (back in the '90s - that went a long way), plus more whenever we whooped the Tab's asses. A friend of mine got well over a grand for learning Portuguese... there are some odd ones out there, depending on the college.

Motheroffourdragons Fabulous news! Congratulations to you and your boy.

Congratulations LittleDragon

I have posted this before but Valentine is highlighting a particular example of the lack of joined up thinking on the part of the government. I have visited a couple of Science Parks in the vicinity of Oxford and Cambridge recently and the scale of development prompted by advances in biotech etc. And other areas of Science is impressive. However from what I can gather it has been almost entirely spontaneous. There has been no corresponding infrastructure development to cater for the needs of the people living there, let alone to encourage development and investment. Research isn't well paid but rents have skyrocketed as a result of the increased demand. I can well imagine the issues this poses for postgrads. It begs the question of whether a career in STEM research is only for those with a bank of Mum and Dad, especially since the Brexit vote has messed up the career entry points and many new graduates are faced with the issue that to get experience you need an entry level job but since these have contracted to get an entry level job you now need experience. Where the Council in Cambridge have sponsored the development of new housing it has been a plannng disaster with the developers watering down the plans and ending up with high density soulless estates with problems with pollution, anti social behaviour and even pop up brothels (I suppose some might not see that as a problem )

The President of the Royal Society responded to the Brexit vote by highlighting that with investment in terms infrastructure and attracting private investment this sort of development could have been focused on the academic strength in Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds as well as Oxbridge and with transport links this could have helped invigorate the economies of small towns in the region like Barnsley and Wakefield. Indeed I was reading recently that off its own back the Council and University and other parties have focused on attracting the renewable energy industry to Hull with some success. As others have said lower rents would make a career in STEM more accessible too.

Were this China that sort of infrastructure planning would be in place. Of course we probably don't want the Pennine valleys to be filled with new towns of 40 storey skyscrapers connected by high speed rail links and massive bridges that stretch the limits of engineering science. However that is who we are competing with in the global economy.

Well done, BabyDragon

Delurking briefly to share what I thought was a very funny take on Brexit from the Irish Times
www.irishtimes.com/opinion/an-irishman-s-diary-a-reading-from-the-book-of-brexodus-1.3122899

Thanks for keeping up these great threads.