Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

[RedToothBrush]

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

uk.businessinsider.com/labour-brexit-spokesperson-suggests-that-labour-will-back-repeal-bill-2017-7?r=US&IR=T

Labour will support Theresa May on the Great Repeal Bill, chief Brexit spokesperson says

If Labour and JC unconditionally support TM and her Brexit stance, I will be very disappointed. The sharp increase in vites that Labour is in (big?) part as a reaction to TM Brexit stance. Because people don't want that.
Imo if JC just goes along with Brexit etc... he will have lied to people should I say another politician has lied AGAIN

You're absolutely correct, LH. I'm not saying it is right at all, but it is the way it is. I'm pretty sure it is at least as complicated in the US also.

Somewhile ago - I'm sure it was in this forum, I suggested that schools were run for the benefit of educationalists, hospitals for administrators and the justice system for the legal profession.

There's a clue in that last word, btw. "Profession". if ever there was a circle-jerk of vested interests it's "professionals".

Maybe, one day in utopia, we'll laugh at the naivete, of getting accountants to advise on tax laws, lawyers on criminal and civil law, and doctors on medical spending.

Petronius interesting comment on making WFA, TV licence etc taxable. I think this would be a better approach to child benefit than the current system of cliff edge withdrawal.

How do you feel about extending NI to pensioners? Also I was reflecting on local income tax earlier and I think in general this would lead to lower bills for pensioners which may need to be offset.

I wonder if Labour are continuing their pre-election tactic of "leaking" to commit the party to a course of action.

Duly contacting my Labour MP again.

leaking and counter leaking seems to be the order of the day for the Conservatives too. Makes a refreshing change to see policy debate being conducted in public and tweaked according to voter response rather than the DC / GO / NC show or before that Blair's sofa cabinet.

May has approached lib dems for support apparently.

May has approached lib dems for support apparently.

I sooooooooooooooooooooooooo want that to be true. Along with Vince Cable saying "fuck off to the far side of fuck"

Strongly denied by LibDems.

Oh I quite believe it. May is really panicking.

How completely deluded would TM have to be to ask the LibDems for support? It beggars belief.

This is going to be May’s lot from now on isn’t it, going cap in hand begging for support?

WHAT ARE THEY THINKING ?????

Unbelievable irresponsibility and incompetence of this govt:

"UK govt had no position on what wanted from Brexit but May set clock running anyway."

"we have not had a detailed discussion across departments about what the impact of leaving the single market will be for specific sectors of the UK economy."

Whether Leaver or Remainer, surely everyone must agree that before invoking A50, the govt should have:
used the time since the ERef to estimate the impact on the economy of the various Brexit options (including leaving the various agencies),
then choose the preferred Brexit option to negotiate with the EU

Instead, May burned the Uk's boats by invoking A50 first.
What the HELL have the govt been doing since the ERef ?

Did they think Brexit would be merely like switching off the EU App online ?

No wonder Barrneir & co sound exasperated sometimes
They probably have to keep explaining every step slowly 1000 times, until May and DD start to understand

She may want the LDems to tell her the way out of this mess
Clearly her govt hasn't a clue what they are doing.
Labour haven't either; they are just waiting to zoom in after the crash

I sincerely hope that the Lib Dems think very hard about voting with the Tories. If it's something, like improved mental health facilities, which are to the country's benefit, then I would be all for them voting for it, and would think them churlish not to. But not if the aim is to shore up the Tory party.

Along with Vince Cable saying "fuck off to the far side of fuck"

Not really his style

More likely a wry smile

To be fair his position is that May should stay because"she has made this bed of nails and she must lie on it" but that she has to alter her style to one of consensus. He has been talking to the MPs on both right and left that might get behind such consensus. He circulated this article yesterday, I doubt that such consensus is anything May will compromise on www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40480337.

Actually Vince's social media has this week begun to look as if he is modelling it on Red'd Westminsterenders . Suddenly he is circulating up to 10 interesting and informative links a day, or maybe he is just managing to build up a decent campaign team.....

If they shake hands with the Tories on antyhing, the LDems should have learned to count their fingers - hell, check both their arms are still there.

< is red moonlighting for Vince ? >

Quote from the article

"There's a very strong disaffected group within the Conservative Party - they are keeping their heads down at the moment - but I think they are very worried about the way their party's going."

He said former Labour shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna's - unsuccessful - amendment to the Queen's Speech to keep the UK in the single market and the customs union showed cross-party concern about Brexit policy.
On whether he would lead a coalition in the Commons to influence the Brexit negotiations, Sir Vince said: "We're seeking to work with them and we will work with them on a day-to-day basis - and you saw some evidence of that last week.
"There's a need in Parliament at the moment to be much more collaborative - people in the Tory party, Labour Party, also nationalists - see real dangers now ahead in this hard Brexit option the government's pursuing.
"On a day to day basis, I think there will be a lot of collaborative working and I'm certainly very much up for that."

That does not sound like someone who is going to work with May anytime soon.

Big Choc

I think it's more subtle than that....the LDs tend to be quite pragmatic and that is both their strength and weakness.

The last GE indicated people voted Labour over LD even when their core voting value (for want of a better expression) was anti-Brexit in all forms (no Brexit, soft Brexit, 2rd ref, whatever).

I didn't understand why people did that at the time, but thanks to the patient explanations of this thread I gained insight and acceptance why so many people did that. And in many ways I'm glad they did! The government is clearly running scared in a way that they might not be had that non-Tory vote been split more evenly.

But the fact remains: LDs must now know that an "anti-Brexit" ticket does not get them ability to effect change and that they are stuck in a world between far right and far left. I'm not sure JC is seen as any more of an ally than TM (or maybe that's just me). In order to do that they must be selective at policy-level on both sides to support a patchwork type LD manifesto else they have no raison d'etre any more.

Doesn't stop me from feeling sad about it though.