If we just cancelled Brexit....

[GraceGrape]

...do you think there would really be that much fuss?

I posted on the id card thread that it would be much less hassle if we could just cancel Brexit. It got me wishful thinking that this could actually be possible!

Even the most ardent leavers are starting to downplay its likelihood of success. Key figures like Gisela Stuart have admitted it's all been handled disastrously. The economy is starting to look a bit shit before we've even left. According to the pro- leave camp, we all apparently knew there would be a recession but it would still be "worth it" if you're independently wealthy like Garage, IDS or Bojo maybe.

Anyway, I think it would be typically British if we just harrumphed a bit and said "Well, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. The referendum was only advisory y'know."

As a nation, we don't tend to like big changes so I think a lot of people would be secretly relieved. There might be a bit of grumbling, and maybe Farage would leave the country in disgust as an added bonus. We could then sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened, as the Brits tend to do with some of the more unsavoury parts of our history anyway. It would also save us the humiliation of seeing David Davis try to do any more negotiating.

We can't really though - Theresa May and every other PM before her just pushes through what they want. See Tony Blair - Iraq War.

All we can do is vote them out after the event. And only if we have a viable opposition.

No main currently takes environmental concerns seriously - the Greens have one seat - and in fact - prominent brexiteers seem to very against EU environmental directives (along with workers rights, health & safety etc) - I give you Jacob Rees-Mogg and Andrea Leadsome as examples.

When the campaign director who penned the '£350M for the NHS '- on the side of a bus debacle, starts doubting Brexit - you have start wondering exactly where we're going, and whether it's a good thing or not..

Oh, and if you don't believe me, take a look at the Jacob Rees-mogg for PM thread running at the moment. Seems that a few people judge a politician on being funny on HIGNFY, or eloquent on QT, rather than on their voting record.

As to whether the UK will enact good environmental policies, as with everything else Brexitwise for me this comes back to the fact that decisions will be made by our government under our democratic control, and we can hold them to account for what they do or don't do

Yes, like the great example in Lancashire. Widespread local opposition to fracking. Local council voted to refuse to allow fracking. So the government overturned that and fracking is going ahead.

There's been a lot of flooding in the past decade. Lots of complaints about flood prevention.

So I'm not feeling particularly reassured about the environment post Brexit.

Take all the nonsense about banning hoovers. How can it possibly be sensible to be legislating to reduce motor sizes of hoovers

Of course it's sensible to ask that future hoovers will be more economical. Loads of items use less energy.

Honestly cross your issues with the EU seem pretty minor.

Couldn't we just:

• bring back blue passports;
• introduce compulsory Imperial measurements (down to the furlong and the drachm)
• bring back the Light Programme and ITMA;
• have swarms of Spitfires doing victory rolls over the White Cliffs of Dover;
• leave everything else the same.

That would satisfy most leavers 90% of what they want, surely, and at minimal cost.

"give most leavers"

Honestly cross your issues with the EU seem pretty minor

I thought we were having a reasonable discussion. We have discussed immigration, economics and the environment. But my concerns are minor because I use hoovers as an example . If you think the migrant crisis in the EU and the economic state of some EU countries are minor issues, well bully for you, and good luck to you in your insular bubble.

When the campaign director who penned the '£350M for the NHS '- on the side of a bus debacle, starts doubting Brexit - you have start wondering exactly where we're going, and whether it's a good thing or not..

I find it interesting how manu remain supporters are now suggesting we should listen to Dominic Cummings.

Name change fail. Last two posts from me.

Shoes You don't seem very impressed with democracy. What do you suggest instead?

I thought we were having a reasonable discussion. We have discussed immigration, economics and the environment

Sorry I wasn't being rude. We disagree on immigration. I've already agreed the refugee crisis is appalling.
Your solution to that crisis seems to be to pull up the drawbridge. Whereas I think we don't do nearly enough to help. We aren't going to agree on that and that's fine.

But my concerns are minor because I use hoovers as an example

So use a better example.

Environmental issues are not my main concern regarding leaving the EU. Immigration, economics and more generally being able to determine laws and policies which are best for our country, rather than which suit the most powerful EU countries, are my main issues.

The process for making environmental policy in the EU is non transparent and ineffective.

My point about hoovers is that it is minor. I live a fairly modest life and don't think my carbon footprint is too horrendous compared to many. I don't drive much. I rarely travel abroad. I tend to travel in the UK by train. But the EU has decided that it wants to tell me what hoover I can use. I could, if I wanted and had the money, own four homes in different countries and travel between them regularly. I could commute from France (people do). I could take six or twenty holidays or trips abroad a year. I could drive a big car miles per week. I can buy food and other goods in endless packaging. I can buy food with palm oil in it (in fact it is difficult not to). I could replace my carpets every year if I wanted. Or the carpets in my hypothetical four houses.

But the EU is determined that I can't have a powerful hoover to get the dog hair out of my carpets in my one little house which I and my family and dog live in and which I would like to keep nice I'm sorry if it seem trivial. It is trivial. It's bonkers. And symbolic. It is a law which is doing nothing to save the environment whilst important issues are left unaddressed.

I find it interesting how manu remain supporters are now suggesting we should listen to Dominic Cummings

I think the most interesting thing about Cummings' suggestion that Brexit might be an error is that he seems to think that Brexit is not panning out in the way he envisioned. A key issue about the referendum is that no vision of Brexit was set out and people did have different ideas about what they wanted to gain from it. I wonder who actually is happy with the version of Brexit that is emerging from the current government.

cross

Can I put your mind at rest regarding hoovers. This is an extract from the above link on vacuum cleaners.

Throughout our thorough reviews process, we consistently find that a vacuum's power rating has little impact on suction. Instead, a combination of factors, including motor and cylinder design, whether the bag or bin is full, whether the filters are regularly cleaned and the shape of the vacuum head can all affect how good a vacuum cleaner is at its job. The 1,400w AEG Ultracaptic Animal has the most powerful suction of all the vacuums we've tested to date, outperforming 2,200w machine

It's a bit of a Jeremy Clarkson attitude that "more power" = "more suction"

It's not trivial to worry about being able to clean your house properly. But it's daft to complain about instead of spending 5 minutes googling the problem to find out it is actually a none issue.

Environmental issues are not my main concern regarding leaving the EU. Immigration, economics and more generally being able to determine laws and policies which are best for our country, rather than which suit the most powerful EU countries, are my main issues

Ok so what actual laws and policies are bothering you?
What is the EU stopping you from doing now (or making you do) that would end post Brexit?

But it's daft to complain about instead of spending 5 minutes googling the problem to find out it is actually a none issue

I think we may be going round in circles here. If I could be bothered, I would estimate how much CO2 is produced by hoovers and how much will be saved by reducing the power of hoover engines. Then I would compare it to the CO2 produced by all the other activities I mentioned in my post. And then I would repeat that it seems a fairly trivial and futile way to try to address global warming and an indication that decision making in the EU is not effective.

I think we may be going round in circles here. If I could be bothered, I would estimate how much CO2 is produced by hoovers and how much will be saved by reducing the power of hoover engines

Two things

1. why is this bothering you at all? It is completely possible to have a very powerful cleaner that uses lower wattage. Generally I support making appliances more efficient.

2. this isn't done in isolation. But into Currys, most large electrical appliances have energy ratings. Light bulbs use much less energy now than they did when I was a kid.

Put together all these efficiencies do reduce the amount of CO2 emitted.

Seriously for issues around the environment we have the EU bringing in wattage limits on cleaners.
Vs this government overturning a local council on whether to allow fracking in that area. The people in that area are very much anti fracking but the government is going ahead regardless.

Ok so what actual laws and policies are bothering you?
What is the EU stopping you from doing now (or making you do) that would end post Brexit?

This is an interesting question, and I wonder if it suggests a difference in how leave and remain voters see the EU. The EU is not currently stopping or making me, personally do anything. Tbh it is not myself I am concerned about, it is my children and future generations. I think the world is changing very fast and mostly not in a good way. The handling of the migrant crisis has shown that the EU is totally incapable of responding to major events for the benefit of its member states. Poland, Hungary and Austria are quite clear what policy they want (states and people) in relation to migration. The EU is trying to force them to adopt policies they do not want. I think a disaster is brewing in Europe. Integration of immigrants seems to have completely broken down in many areas, possibly due in part just to numbers and speed. Communities are increasingly living side by side with completely different values. I don't think this is a recipe for peace and stability. There are very clear signs that an EU army is on the cards. The EU wants closer political union. I think the best thing for the UK is to remove ourselves from the EU whilst we can (how much harder will it be in a few years, or in a time of major crisis?) so that we can democratically take decisions for the benefit of the people of the UK.

If this conversation is to follow the usually route, you will now tell me this is soundbite, nebulous tripe. I hope you don't. I really find it hard to understand people who are not worried by what is happening in Europe.

I'd echo that I'm irritated and annoyed by some current EU policies but it the constant push towards an EU Superstate I voted against. I voted to protect and defend our future, in my opinion which is all I was asked to give we will be safer out than in.

Crosswordsalad I hear what you are saying but when you say "But the EU is determined that I can't have a powerful hoover to get the dog hair out of my carpets" it is not entirely true because the UK had as much say in that law, as did all the other EU members.

Here is the report about it from the House of Commons scrutiny committee.

Scroll down to no. 11 - labelling of energy related products in which it states that the Government generally welcomed the Commission's proposals.

So although you may feel that this law has been imposed on us on high by the EU, it really isn't the case - the UK took part in a consensual process - with the aim to improve energy efficiency across Europe.

Okay, I stand corrected on the hoover issue When and Sans and thank you for your links

As I say, I am more concerned about the issues of migration, economics and the ability to make our own decisions in a rapidly changing world.

I really find it hard to understand people who are not worried by what is happening in Europe

It's not that people aren't worried about the refugee situation, it's just that we have a different opinion on how to help the situation.
Pulling up the drawbridge and looking after "your own" sounds eminently sensible to some. The refugee crisis is still happening but it's not effecting my country, so I'm alright. It's not an attitude I like but I can see the appeal.

The EU is not currently stopping or making me, personally do anything. Tbh it is not myself I am concerned about, it is my children and future generations

The world is getting smaller, globalisation is happening regardless of whether the UK leaves. You can't turn the clock back. I think it sounds quite patronising to say "I'm doing this for the kids, I know what's best for them." When the younger generations on the whole voted to remain (obviously not all but there's a definite age split in voting preferences).

I think the best thing for the UK is to remove ourselves from the EU whilst we can

It all sounds really nationalist / isolationist. I'm struggling to think of a country who has benefited from increasing their isolation. I'm sure someone with way more knowledge of history will enlighten me on that matter.

It's not that people aren't worried about the refugee situation, it's just that we have a different opinion on how to help the situation

I think a lot of people are either unaware or in denial about the problems which will face Europe in the coming years if mass immigration continues. I am not including you in this.

Pulling up the drawbridge and looking after "your own" sounds eminently sensible to some. The refugee crisis is still happening but it's not effecting my country, so I'm alright. It's not an attitude I like but I can see the appeal

If we are concerned about helping people from other countries, there are far more effective ways of doing this than encouraging lots of young men to get into boats and set sail for Europe. Tbh, I am more concerned about women and children than young men, and I really don't understand the notion that we just take in the young men and somehow think we are helping. I do believe our first priority is to look after our own country. I also believe that civil strife will not be good for anyone, not natives, not immigrants.

And the migration crisis did not just appear from nowhere. Much of current migration is economic, not refugees. As such, it could be resolved by action from the countries migrants are arriving in. I don't think any country has any moral obligation to damage itself and it's citizens just because other countries are choosing to do so.

I'm actually quite skeptical that the current mass migration from Africa is even helping the young men themselves. Yes, they may be financially better off in Europe, but at what cost to their family life, chance of finding meaningful work, and all the other things which make life worth living? I'd be interested to know if anyone knows of any research into what recent African migrants think now they are in Europe and whether it meets their expectations.

The world is getting smaller, globalisation is happening regardless of whether the UK leaves. You can't turn the clock back. I think it sounds quite patronising to say "I'm doing this for the kids, I know what's best for them." When the younger generations on the whole voted to remain (obviously not all but there's a definite age split in voting preferences).

It's patronising to say I take my political decisions based on my concerns for my children and future generations? Bizarre. How should I make my decisions - based on how expensive my next European city break is going to be or something really important like that perhaps? I think we have done some strange things to our thinking over the last few decades. Seriously suggesting that there is something dubious about basing ones decisions on what one thinks will be best for future generations demonstrates how far we have gone, in my view.

It all sounds really nationalist / isolationist. I'm struggling to think of a country who has benefited from increasing their isolation. I'm sure someone with way more knowledge of history will enlighten me on that matter

Time will tell.

Regarding the current levels of migration into Europe. And your fears of all the men approaching our shores. How does Brexit stop these migrants coming to Britain.

At the moment if a refugee or illegal migrant comes into Europe they can't just come to Britain.
Post Brexit they still can't just come to Britain.

I think people have voted Brexit to make themselves feel safer from all these "men in boats". But actually nothing will change post Brexit.

It's patronising to say I take my political decisions based on my concerns for my children and future generations

It feels patronising to me because most future generations would actually like to remain in the EU. They like the increased opportunity it brings. I know loads of people who have traveled to Europe to further their career.
Being in Europe means we attract companies to invest in the uk. Being able to move goods and services across Europe is a huge advantage to manufacturing and trade.
It looks likely Brexit is going to hit the economy hard. That will affect younger people more than older.

For these people it feels like opportunities have been stripped away. And when they ask why from the people who voted leave. They get told it will protect them from migrants and even though they don't want it they need to shut up and be positive as it's for their own good.

Oh regarding time will tell in terms of isolationist policies. There have been human civilisations for millennia. So far it hasn't worked out. I see no reason to assume isolationism will work now.

Regarding the current levels of migration into Europe. And your fears of all the men approaching our shores. How does Brexit stop these migrants coming to Britain.

At the moment we have freedom of movement with the EU. Once people become citizens, they can move anywhere within the EU. It is also the case that migrants move between EU countries without citizenship - this seems to be happening at the moment with migrants in Italy travelling to Paris, unimpeded. I am sure you are aware of the migrants at Calais trying to get into the UK. A lorry driver was recently killed when migrants blocked the road and his vehicle hit the obstruction. Just because there is a set legal system for migrants, doesn't mean that everyone adheres to this system, and in any case, in the long term, if large numbers of migrants obtain citizenship, then they will be free to travel anywhere in the EU.

At the moment if a refugee or illegal migrant comes into Europe they can't just come to Britain.

As we know, they can't but they do.

I think people have voted Brexit to make themselves feel safer from all these "men in boats". But actually nothing will change post Brexit.

I'm not sure why the "men in boats" are in inverted comes. The migrants are predominantly men, young men and predominantly arriving by boat. This is not some odd invention of the leave voter mindset. It is the reality.

It feels patronising to me because most future generations would actually like to remain in the EU.

No, future generations are not yet born.

They like the increased opportunity it brings. I know loads of people who have traveled to Europe to further their career. Being in Europe means we attract companies to invest in the uk. Being able to move goods and services across Europe is a huge advantage to manufacturing and trade. It looks likely Brexit is going to hit the economy hard. That will affect younger people more than older

Yes, all good reasons to stay in the EU if you think they outweigh the downsides. I don't. The economy is important but it is not the only factor in quality of life. I just can't get my head around this argument that we should vote as young people vote. It's not that far off saying older people shouldn't get a vote is it, if we are not entitled to make our own decision? I don't know if you are a parent. I am, and I very often don't do what my children want, but what I think is best for them is that patronising? It's kept them alive which they wouldn't be if I'd always done what they wanted. I have many years more experience and knowledge than them. I try to use it to help them. They would, I think, believe I was letting them down if I just always said "We'll do whatever you want". It's another of those odd ways of thinking we have been moulded into over the last years, that older people have no responsibility to use their greater knowledge and experience and in fact are "patronising" if they do so. I just don't buy it.

For these people it feels like opportunities have been stripped away. And when they ask why from the people who voted leave. They get told it will protect them from migrants and even though they don't want it they need to shut up and be positive as it's for their own good

I have never told anyone to shut up about Brexit and whether people are positive about it is none of my business. We have one person, one vote in the UK. I voted as I though best, as did everyone else, I imagine. Leave won. If people have trouble accepting that fact, really that is their problem.

Oh regarding time will tell in terms of isolationist policies. There have been human civilisations for millennia. So far it hasn't worked out. I see no reason to assume isolationism will work now

You are talking as if we are going to close the ports, shut the airports and disconnect the internet. I don't think we are. Not being subject to mass immigration or joined by freedom of movement to other countries being subject to mass immigration is not, in my view, becoming isolationist.

Once people become citizens, they can move anywhere within the EU

That can take 6-8 years.

I am sure you are aware of the migrants at Calais trying to get into the UK
Again you've mentioned a big problem that will not be solved in any way by Brexit. Of all the arguements to leave, I never heard anyone claim the issue of migrants in Calais would be solved by Brexit.

No, future generations are not yet born Sorry my mistake, I meant younger generations.

I don't know if you are a parent. I am, and I very often don't do what my children want, but what I think is best for them is that patronising

Yes I have kids, they are very young.

When we talk about the young in this context we are talking about voting adults. Telling a ten year old what is best for then is completely different to telling a 25 or 30 year old.
Also in this context the impacts of Brexit fall much heavier on younger voters than on those who have retired. So if when the shit hits the fan it will hit younger generations worse.

I have never told anyone to shut up about Brexit and whether people are positive about it is none of my business

That wasn't aimed at you (you seem to like a discussion, which I really value). I was thinking of people like Andrea Leadsom. When pressed on the details of Brexit she asked for the media to be more patriotic and support the government.

You are talking as if we are going to close the ports, shut the airports and disconnect the internet. I don't think we are. Not being subject to mass immigration or joined by freedom of movement to other countries being subject to mass immigration is not, in my view, becoming isolationist

But you can't just opt out of freedom of movement on its own. You lose the single market and the customs union too. The EU isn't a pick and mix of benefits.
By isolationist I'm referring to a more inward stance. Looking after our own before others (e.g. cutting foreign aid). Putting forward your own agenda while failing to see the other countries point of view (e.g. the UK insisting German car manufacturers won't let Britain leave without a good trade deal - that's not working out as the Leaver MPs wanted).