If we just cancelled Brexit....

[GraceGrape]

...do you think there would really be that much fuss?

I posted on the id card thread that it would be much less hassle if we could just cancel Brexit. It got me wishful thinking that this could actually be possible!

Even the most ardent leavers are starting to downplay its likelihood of success. Key figures like Gisela Stuart have admitted it's all been handled disastrously. The economy is starting to look a bit shit before we've even left. According to the pro- leave camp, we all apparently knew there would be a recession but it would still be "worth it" if you're independently wealthy like Garage, IDS or Bojo maybe.

Anyway, I think it would be typically British if we just harrumphed a bit and said "Well, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. The referendum was only advisory y'know."

As a nation, we don't tend to like big changes so I think a lot of people would be secretly relieved. There might be a bit of grumbling, and maybe Farage would leave the country in disgust as an added bonus. We could then sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened, as the Brits tend to do with some of the more unsavoury parts of our history anyway. It would also save us the humiliation of seeing David Davis try to do any more negotiating.

Not content with his speech trying to persuade us to cancel Brexit, did Tony Blair start this thread?

I am not Tony . I am considerably younger and less keen on sending troops into Iraq.

I hope you are less smarmy too!

Anyway, we should stay. The end.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-remain-win-new-eu-exit-vote-survation-poll-a7820286.html

Why not call another referendum? After all TM called a snap election out of nowhere. If the leavers are so very confident in the result then they have nothing to fear, right?

And OMFG. Have you ever read anything that makes you want to bang your head on a brick wall so much as this?

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-dominic-cummings-vote-leave_uk_595b62bbe4b02734df33fbc0

Even Fuckwit Cummings now thinks leaving "could be an error".

When I read it - my immediate thought was: Oh, ffs.

shoes

If I'm honest I'm shocked as many as 46% still want to leave. I think things will have to go down the shitter for a bit longer before a lot of Leavers change their mind.

I know, why would anyone want to leave the EU? It's all going so well for the EU and its inhabitants.

Austrian troops on the Austrian/Italy border:

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/04/austrian-troops-to-stop-migrants-crossing-border-with-italy

Italy facing a crisis over tens of thousands of African migrants arriving (10,000 in 48 hours at one point):

www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/eu-countries-turn-their-backs-as-italy-faces-migrant-surge-overflowing-camps/article35552646/

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/29/italy-threatens-close-ports-ships-carrying-rescued-migrants/

Bill Gates, not a man know for his nationalist sentiments as far as I am aware, warning that the current EU migration policy is unsustainable:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4665198/Bill-Gates-warns-open-door-migration-overwhelm-Europe.html

The EU taking Slovakia and Hungary to court over their migrant policy:

www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-slovakia-hungary-idUSKBN186222

All great, no problems here, nothing to see here.

How is Freedom of Movement the same as tackling the refugee crisis. Contrary to UKIP shit, don't see Turkey joining the EU anytime soon.

I know, why would anyone want to leave the EU? It's all going so well for the EU and its inhabitants

These refugees don't have FOM, leaving the EU doesn't stop them from coming here. They can't come here already (via legal means)

Italy facing a crisis over tens of thousands of African migrants arriving (10,000 in 48 hours at one point)

You are blaming the EU for something that's not necessarily its fault. If Italy left the EU do you think the migrants would stop coming? Of course not.

You've identified a massive problem but I'm not sure scrapping the EU is the solution.

It's just so sad that the immediate reaction to the migrant crisis isn't "how can we help our European neighbours and solve this problem" but "shit lets get out before anyone asks us to help".

It's just so sad that the immediate reaction to the migrant crisis isn't "how can we help our European neighbours and solve this problem" but "shit lets get out before anyone asks us to help".

Quite. How refreshing to see a 'let's leave the EU' argument that boils down to nothing more than immigration. When did we become so sanguine about pushing desperate people back, watching them drown, leaving them to fester in refugee camps etc?

Yes, yes, of course anyone who has a different opinion to you on immigration and the EU clearly just wants to watch people drown and fester in refugee camps. It is THAT simple and all the world's problems will be solved if we (the UK and EU) just carry on with what we are doing.

I find it odd that you don't seem to think that the refugee crisis, the EU taking eastern states to court over accepting refugees, the failure to sort out the crisis in Italy due to thousands of refugees arriving by the sea, and the fact that two EU states now have armed troops on their joint border all have nothing to do with the EU

But Cross you have described a problem that's happening in the EU.

What you have failed to do is show us how this problem would be vastly improved by countries not being in the EU or the EU not existing.

The boats would still land in Italy even if it left the EU.

Can only speak for myself but this is an example of one (of the several I may add) reasons why I voted as I did. You can't just make this type of decision and apply it to all these countries without any planning whatsoever, Europe now has a monumental problem/timebomb on its hands and has no idea how to deal with it. It's the principle that has been applied here that I don't agree with. Putting it bluntly it seems a case of 'do as I say and suck up the consequences'. Not great really.

It's just so sad that the immediate reaction to the migrant crisis isn't "how can we help our European neighbours and solve this problem" but "shit lets get out before anyone asks us to help"

I'm not sure what's immediate about what I have said. In my opinion, the EU has shown itself to be incapable of dealing with important issues for the benefit of all the citizens of its member states. So I think staying in the EU whilst it continues to make an almighty mess of the continent would not be wise. A lot of the posts addressed to me seem to imply that remaining in the EU is somehow a more moral and honourable position to leaving. I just don't agree with that view. I think we have a responsibility to our children and descendants to try to limit damage to our country and getting put of the EU will help us do this.

In my opinion, the EU has shown itself to be incapable of dealing with important issues for the benefit of all the citizens of its member states

Any chance of any examples?

Economics - Greece, Spain
Environmental policies
Immigration

Ok I get you aren't keen on people coming to the uk. I disagree with you but fair enough.

Any chance of more detail on Environmental policies and Greece / Spain?

Environment example - biodiesel and palm oil. George Monbiot. Odd headline, completely contradicted by the piece. Illustrates the faulty processes at work as well as the disasterous outcome in this case.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/20/brexiters-make-britain-countryside-like-kansas

Then there is the European insistence that much of our transport fuel be replaced by biodiesel. I’ve been inveighing against the manufacture ofbiodiesel from crops since 2004, andhave often been mocked for it. Nowwe know not only that it causes much greater greenhouse gas emissions than the fuel it replaces, but alsothat it’s a major cause of perhaps the greatest environmental disaster ofthe 21st century so far: the mass obliteration of the rainforests of Indonesia and Malaysia, driven in large part by palm oilproduction

Leaked figures released in June suggest biodiesel now accounts for 45% of the palm oil used in Europe. With one thoughtless policy – which was designed, under a lobbying onslaught, to avert the need for tougher rules on car manufacturers – the European commission has annulled all the environmental good it has ever done

Greece and Spain - do you really think that being in the EU and the euro has helped them? Perhaps you could explain how.

Regarding Biodiesel - recently MEPs voted to ban palm oil from the production of biodiesel by 2020. In order to reduce the risk of carbon reduction targets causing deforestation.

So you've identified a problem in the EU (which the EU is now trying to fix).

But again you haven't shown how the environment would be better cared for outside the EU. This quote is lifted from the article you linked to.

It is also clear that they {Andrea Leadsom and George Eustice} are inclined to torch environmental protections. With neither incentives nor rules constraining their behaviour, the least responsible farmers will thrive while the more careful will struggle to compete. These matters are not peripheral to our lives: without soil, there is nothing

Doesn't sound like the journalist you linked to is too hopeful about healthy environment policies post Brexit.

Greece is in an utterly shit position. It has massive massive debts.

Would it be better staying in the EU or leaving? So far it's stayed.

If it leaves there is the arguement it could devalue its currency and drive exports and the economy. But this relies on a smooth exit from the EU.
Something we are finding out is actually quite difficult.
Even the Tories will admit "no deal is better than a bad deal" is a load of shit.

That's good news about the palm oil ban When. I didn't know that and it's good to hear sense has prevailed.

I think the Monbiot article is somewhat confused about whether the EU is a force for good or ill on environmental matters. He does say that the palm oil fiasco would more harm than all the good the EU has done environmentally. I think the decision making system doesn't work properly. Take all the nonsense about banning hoovers. How can it possibly be sensible to be legislating to reduce motor sizes of hoovers (I don't know about you but I use mine for a very small time per week) when people are flying and driving all over the place, replacing consumer items at the drop of a hat etc, etc. Just futile and symbolically of the futility of many EU decisions.

As to whether the UK will enact good environmental policies, as with everything else Brexitwise for me this comes back to the fact that decisions will be made by our government under our democratic control, and we can hold them to account for what they do or don't do.