Westministenders: Before the Fire Alarm of Rome goes off

[RedToothBrush]

I’m going to keep this one very simple.

THE DEADLINE TO REGISTER TO VOTE IS 22ND MAY.
www.gov.uk/register-to-vote

Postal votes start to go out on 23rd May.

Your challenge is to persuade someone to register to vote or to get someone who is considering not to, to get their arse to the polling station.

Go forth and harass. Especially women and the young.

That’s it. No frills OP.

...and the living will envy the dead ...

Jo Maugham @JoloyonMaugham
They know the wheels are gonna come off. Their tactic is to hope that, when they do, Remaining feels impossible.

This is true. Eliminate any chance of anyone changing their mind.

On balance I am in favour of extending the franchise to 16 year olds. I am only such an anorak this year because I have a 16 year old who voted for the first time in local elections. The anecdotal evidence in Scotland so far supports the view that engaging 16 year olds gives them the inclination and tools to engage in civic society from adolescence and into young adulthood which must be positive.

However it is also true that teenagers are much more susceptible to propaganda.

I agree with pp about baby boomers being reluctant to pass the baton. However this is not just the case in politics. The UK has comparatively low levels of youth unemployment, compared to Europe, but even here their progression in the workplace has slowed, which in part drives lack of innovation and their comparative wage disadvantage - it is the natural consequence of keeping older workers in the workforce.

We are now in Gove/ Sessions democratic 'rapture' territory. Nothing to do with brexit, just following through what the original thatcherite lunatics started.

Ah tae fuck.

On balance I am in favour of extending the franchise to 16 year olds

No taxation without representation ?

It's hard to argue against it on that basis ....

How many 16 year olds do you know earning above the tax free allowance LH? I was just aggrieved the other night when it dawned on me I couldn't send them to the Offie on my behalf.

On a serious note that is why I am against the huge increases to the tax free PA. Anyone else noticing how often Tory MPs talk about being fair to the "Taxpayer" when challenged on falling incomes for low waged families?

"We suffer fools gladly"
Wilde had more compassion than I am able to muster.

I almost choked on my toast this morning at the Tories claiming to be improving workers rights after systematically working to break unions, remove rights to strike, reduce access to tribunals for the poor, implementing wage freezes across the public sector and attacking whistleblowers. The entire plan to magically improve the rights of workers seems to be assuring us we will get to keep the rights we already have from the EU (which is nice of them), some faffing with zero hours contracts that does not in anyway address the fundamental problems with them, and telling me I can have some unpaid leave (which would be lovely, if they fancied paying my mortgage for me and ensuring that my career is not going to adversely impacted by taking a year out).

"However it is also true that teenagers are much more susceptible to propaganda"

I would like to see some evidence for this. My suspicion would be that teenagers are if anything less susceptible to the kind of propaganda that dominates currently, having been born into a world of social media and targeted messages.

How many 16 year olds do you know earning above the tax free allowance LH?

Odd thing to comment, surely ? Are you suggesting that you should only have the vote if you earn above the PA ? (I'm sure you weren't).

My point was that if we have a law (which we do) that requires 16 year old to pay tax as an adult then they should also have the associated right to vote. Alternatively, non-voting 16 year olds shouldn't be required to pay tax. Either makes sense.

Remember a large part of the bullshit of the Leave campaign was to complain that we had no say in the running of the EU despite having to pay in ? 16 year olds in the UK might say the same.

However it is also true that teenagers are much more susceptible to propaganda

I suspect this really means that teenagers are much more likely to think, see and do in more black and white terms.

Which is why a lot of spin based around "here's what we say" fails. Certainly our DS (21) can punch holes in anything he hears by simply saying "but if that was true" and pointing to things he sees. (Labour voter, btw).

Older folk seem to be more accepting of being told it's sunny while looking at a sea of umbrellas ...

Yes, some things are nuanced. But people using foodbanks because they simply cannot ear enough to provide for their family isn't "nuanced". It's simply a fucking disgrace - whoever is in power.

This morning on R4 I caught a brief bit of something they were doing on the difference between the young and old in prospects and what they will get from the system. The bit I heard covered pensions and seemed pretty good. It clearly gave the impression that the young are getting the shitty end of the stick. They are stuck paying the pensions for the boomers while unlikely to get even close to the same pay out themselves and with the expectation that they will work much later.

I say they, but I just about slip into the 'millennial' category even though I am luckier than some as I have caught the end of a still pretty good LGPS pension, though no longer final salary. I have been preparing a career plan that will enable me to work in some form until I keel over. This seems to be essential these days as few people will be able to afford the pensions contributions needed to ensure they have adequate income as they age.

Interestingly howabout - my dad (who is in East Dunbartonshire), is not impressed with John Nicholson (he wrote to him about something and even even got a response) . He's still going to vote for him, which he says is a shame because Jo Swinson was a good MP. She (or one of her activists) has already rung him up asking for his support - as he had voted for her before and she has canvassed him personally in the past - and he said robustly he would no longer vote LibDem - and that he can remember a time when the LibDems did support self determination (old and politically aware old gimmer, my dad ) .

Belated reaction to what Summer said - my thoughts exactly. the right to a year off to take care of elderly relatives will soon turn in to an obligation for many women . No thanks.

Re taxation: to be fair the mantra shouldn't be "No taxation without representation" as it is possible for even under 16s (eg child actors) to earn above the income tax threshold and therefore be liable for tax. Not many, since it is not the norm to "work" but they do exist.

It is only NI that kicks in after 16 - as you only get your NI number then.

On youngsters seeing things in black and white, I agree with that to a certain extent. However, what is wrong with that? 16 year old ds for example is very black and white about US Syrian air strikes, Palestine and Bernie v Hillary - but at least he has taken the trouble to read about them. Many voters are not as informed.

However it is also true that teenagers are much more susceptible to propaganda.

The issue with propaganda is people in general think they themselves are immune to it, because that's often how propaganda works - by making people believe they have the power not the propaganda....

Until recently at least the biggest influence on how young people vote has been how their parents vote in the UK.

That seems to be changing.

However it is also true that teenagers are much more susceptible to propaganda
More susceptible than who?

My tribute to Amy Siskind's authoritarian list. I'm going to do a comparative one. Patterns are useful to observe:
This week:

Trump on voter suppression:
www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/05/kris_kobach_is_leading_trump_s_vote_fraud_commission_that_s_terrifying.html

May suppresses youth vote and suggests we don't need to vote anyway to live in a democracy.

Mercer funds Trump
Mercer funds Leave/conkips.

Trump attacks judiciary.
May attacks judiciary.

Trump suppresses press.
May suppresses press. (today's legislation)

GOP powerless to remove Trump.
Traditional and remain tories powerless to control May.

Conservative (or should that be ConKip) councillor for Warrington, Nick Harrington has been suspended after posting this on Twitter.

Is Nick Harrington what you get when you put Nick Griffin and Patrick Harrington in the large bellend hadron collider ?

Disgraceful.
Even more UCONs obviously think it's ok to state these views openly
It used to be that you had to turn over a stone to see the slimy crawlies underneath.

howabout The UK has comparatively low levels of youth unemployment, compared to Europe, but even here their progression in the workplace has slowed, which in part drives lack of innovation and their comparative wage disadvantage - it is the natural consequence of keeping older workers in the workforce.

I would be interested in where this perspective comes from. Admittedly it is a ten years since I worked in a U.K. wide business but I keep my contacts there and bearing in mind the tail end of the boomers are now in the region of 60 there are few of them left at all levels of the organisation (and it is an organisation that is bottom heavy with low paid but for the most part secure jobs ). They have either retired or taken advantage of successive sweeps of redundancy / early retirement.

When I started my career there was a focus on getting rid of dead men's (and they were men) shoes and towards a meritocracy that encompassed diversity, that was to a certain extent successful. Now all the mainly London businesses I have experience of are definitely much more of a meritocracy (and more diverse) and I think that bright young people have a much easier access to accelerated career paths than I did. That is backed up by my knowledge of graduates five years out even though many of them have had time out to go travelling. The graduate job market has though more or less ground to a halt in the last year.

Of course as we have discussed here across the board that has been a decline in job security and terms and conditions in the last ten years but I find it hard to be Leave that baby boomers sitting in jobs are the issue, rather the issue for baby boomers has been age discrimination and actually finding an organisation that has any enthusiasm for taking on or keeping over 50s. I see very few in employment in any sector I have contact with in business or personally?

I think the baby boomers have a lot to answer for in terms of their influence on where the country is. I am not sure that this is one of the issues though?

The age demographics explain why the interests of the young are ignore - they are vastly outnumbered by the cumulative numbers of the older generations.

Reflecting on ages of the parties themselves:
the Tories have been in power more than anyone else for a very long time.
Longevity and endurance may be their chief strengths.

It is by the way one of my issues with the way the government have managed the raising of the pension age particularly as it is my female peers who have been shafted and find themselves with a big hole in their pension plans with little notice. There are a lot of problems facing a woman who is faced with a pension black hole and needs to work longer to fill it and one of them is actually finding anyone who will employ her.