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Brexit

Westministenders: Before the Fire Alarm of Rome goes off

998 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/05/2017 22:22

I’m going to keep this one very simple.

THE DEADLINE TO REGISTER TO VOTE IS 22ND MAY.
www.gov.uk/register-to-vote

Postal votes start to go out on 23rd May.

Your challenge is to persuade someone to register to vote or to get someone who is considering not to, to get their arse to the polling station.

Go forth and harass. Especially women and the young.

That’s it. No frills OP.

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whatwouldrondo · 14/05/2017 14:28

That was seriously scary, he really does not take this seriously does he? If this was a proper strategic plan, like any business, let alone the country, would have, the strategic option they are outlining would be named the seriously deluded crash and burn.......

BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2017 14:28

Well, negotiations could collapse as soon as the UK side accepts the lack of unicorns.
However, before they get to trade, Barnier & co said expats and the Irish border must be sorted.
So, that could take another year.
Hopefully, May won't make them contingent on a trade deal.

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2017 14:37

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/14/sir-vince-cable-tory-landslide-will-spark-serious-conversations/
Sir Vince Cable: Tory landslide will spark 'serious conversations' about new 'centre-left' political party

(I read this as new party. LDs to disappear. Already ongoing rumour about 100 current Labour MPs).

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Motheroffourdragons · 14/05/2017 14:37

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/05/2017 14:39

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BiglyBadgers · 14/05/2017 14:48

I like Corbyn's manifesto, but would be open to a centerists leader who offered a second ref on the brexit deal and prioritised NHS and social care. Unfortunately one does not seem to be available (or at least a credible one, I just can't get any enthusiasm for Farron).

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2017 14:53

www.politico.com/story/2016/12/trump-kissinger-russia-putin-232925
Kissinger, a longtime Putin confidant, sidles up to Trump
From Dec

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/news/80192/theresa-may-and-philip-hammond-host-henry-kissinger
Theresa May and Philip Hammond host Henry Kissinger
From Oct

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik
See Singapore on this page:

Michael Bacon writes that "The PAP government has taken pains to present its principles of meritocracy and pragmatism as a viable alternative to liberal democracy and multi-party competition, sometimes by drawing from a specious notion of Confucian values and Asian culture to construct ideological bulwarks—like "Asian democracy"—against the criticisms of the so-called liberal West. By crediting meritocracy and pragmatism for creating the right conditions for economic success, the PAP government has been able not only to justify its (liberal) democratic deficit, but also to produce ideological resources and a structure of authorization for the maintenance of a one-party dominant regime. In "pragmatic" terms, Singapore's considerable economic success is justification enough for its authoritarian means."

According to Kenneth Paul Tan of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy, "Chua Beng Huat (1997) argued that the rhetoric of pragmatism in Singapore is ideological and hegemonic in nature, adopted and disseminated in the public sphere by the People's Action Party (PAP) government and institutionalized throughout the state in all its administrative, planning and policy-making functions. It is suggested that by doggedly describing itself as pragmatic, the Singapore state is actually disguising its ideological work and political nature through an assertion of the absence of ideology and politics. Chan Heng Chee (1975) earlier described Singapore as a depoliticized "administrative state", where ideology and politics had triumphantly been replaced by rational and scientific modes of public administration."

What was that about Singapore being a model the UK should follow again?

And those pesky human rights things?

Why DID May have Kissinger for a private audience in October?

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LurkingHusband · 14/05/2017 14:58

Us oldies can remember the Social Democrats spinning out of Labour in the 80s as a reaction to the rise of militant (or is that Militant ?) .

But even that doesn't/didn't clear things up ... I was surprised to hear David (Lord ?) Owen backing the Leave campaign. Unless he's in his dotage ?

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2017 15:14

Singapore is a parliamentary republic with a Westminster system of unicameral parliamentary government representing constituencies. The country's constitution establishes a representative democracy as the political system. Executive power rests with the Cabinet of Singapore, led by the Prime Minister and, to a much lesser extent, the President. The President is elected through a popular vote, and has veto powers over a specific set of executive decisions, such as the use of the national reserves and the appointment of judges, but otherwise occupies a largely ceremonial post.

The Parliament serves as the legislative branch of the government. Members of Parliament (MPs) consist of elected, non-constituency and nominated members. Elected MPs are voted into the Parliament on a "first-past-the-post" (plurality) basis and represent either single-member or group representation constituencies. The People's Action Party has won control of Parliament with large majorities in every election since self-governance was secured in 1959.

Although the elections are clean, there is no independent electoral authority and the government has strong influence on the media. Freedom House ranks Singapore as "partly free" in its Freedom in the World report, and The Economist ranks Singapore as a "flawed democracy", the second best rank of four, in its "Democracy Index". The latest elections were in September 2015, with the PAP winning 83 of 89 seats contested with 70% of the popular vote

The legal system of Singapore is based on English common law, but with substantial local differences. Trial by jury was abolished in 1970 so that judicial decisions would rest entirely in the hands of appointed judges. Singapore has penalties that include judicial corporal punishment in the form of caning, which may be imposed for such offences as rape, rioting, vandalism, and certain immigration offences. There is Capital punishment in Singapore for murder, as well as for certain aggravated drug-trafficking and firearms offences.

Amnesty International has said that some legal provisions of the Singapore system conflict with the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, and that Singapore has "... possibly the highest execution rate in the world relative to its population". The government has disputed Amnesty's claims. Singapore's judicial system is considered one of the most reliable in Asia.

Singapore has been consistently rated among the least corrupt countries in the world by Transparency International. Singapore's unique combination of a strong almost authoritarian government with an emphasis on meritocracy and good governance is known as the "Singapore model", and is regarded as a key factor behind Singapore's political stability, economic growth, and harmonious social order. In 2011, the World Justice Project's Rule of Law Index ranked Singapore among the top countries surveyed with regard to "order and security", "absence of corruption", and "effective criminal justice". However, the country received a much lower ranking for "freedom of speech" and "freedom of assembly". All public gatherings of five or more people require police permits, and protests may legally be held only at the Speakers' Corner.

Just how much of this is ringing bells with what Theresa May says?

Noteworthy is the status of foreigner within society as second class.

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Callmecordelia · 14/05/2017 15:15

I think Lord Owen advocated leaving the EU as a way to stop TTIP.

Flawed reasoning that somehow managed to convince a friend of mine to vote Leave. Sad

Cailleach1 · 14/05/2017 15:38

DD on EU citizens under ECJ is interesting. He is talking about freezing the rights. Newcomers won't be acquiring same rights in UK. That is fair enough. However, what about the EU citizens being born every single day in NI. This won't stop after Brexit. Also, the EU seem to want parity for EU citizens as UK citizens will have recourse to the ECJ in the EU. Not to mention the retrospective fast one.

The EU issued the guidelines for the directive days after a50 was triggered. This was ratified by the EU27 heads of state, aka the Council, in April. It is the directive Michel Barnier has been given. That is his mandate from the EU27.

Nothing on NI, just a passing reference by DD. I mentioned this to OH. It is one of the three issues to be resolved before other negotiations and it is absent in discussion or coverage. He said 'Where, Narnia?' That seems to be the British gov't's attitude to NI.

I would be worried that there could be sanctions if the UK don't discuss the money and there is a disorderly brexit. Ireland would be an equivalent of landlocked. There are sea alternatives, but it they are much wilder and weather permitting. The ports would need to be developed a hell of a lot more.

Thornberry played a blinder. Fallon could only say, paraphrasing, "I don't remember any celebration party for Assad's 98% of the vote that I attended . Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LurkingHusband · 14/05/2017 15:39

DD on EU citizens under ECJ is interesting. He is talking about freezing the rights. Newcomers won't be acquiring same rights in UK

Two-tier citizens ? Well take your tax, but you can fuck off when we tell you ?

LurkingHusband · 14/05/2017 15:42

Given that Ireland is a flashpoint for Brexit, and the well known fact that 200% of US citizens are descended from the Irish, what will the NORAID demographic in the US do when they hear about Brexit ?

As one who remembers The Troubles, I also remember the fine line the US government had to tread (much to Mrs Ts disgust) about assisting the UK and extraditing IRA members from the US.

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2017 15:43

There will be a United Ireland.

Holyrod will get dissolved.

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whatwouldrondo · 14/05/2017 16:19

I would not say that the influence of confucian ideology and it's effect on Asian society and politics can be regarded as specious, even if pretending Singapore has a western style democracy in any shape or form is. That is a western perspective that regards western democracy as somehow inherently superior and progressive. Confucianism is the most pervasive non religious ideology in the world, and it is still has a profound impact on culture and politics in china and throughout the diaspora (the ruling and economic elite in Singapore are dominated by the Chinese diaspora)

Actually the true Confucian system had checks and balances. The way in which the literati (the reasonably meritocratic elite selected by the Imperial / academic exam system) continue to feel a duty to bring the failings of the rulers in their responsibilities towards the people at great personal cost at e.g. Tiananmen demonstrates how those checks and balances are supposed to work and how people are still influenced by that ideology.

There are other factors at play in Singapore, it was until relatively recently a one leader state Lee Kwan Yew, the first PM was in power from 1959 until 1990 and there is still a cult of personality around him, children's books on display etc. It is a little specious to say it was ever really modelled on western democracy given the cultural background and indeed that given our western democracy it could be a model for us Hmm

Racism is a feature of Chinese culture going back thousands of years too

howabout · 14/05/2017 16:21

Bigchoc if you lived among the SNP and their supporters as I do rather than accepting the carefully sanitised public rhetoric you might have a different view.

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2017 17:00

In response to the Davis interview:

Jo Maugham QC‏*@JolyonMaugham*
1. You can't take account of your future relationship in a withdrawal agreement until you know there's going to be a withdrawal agreement.
1a. (The EU has said that, without agreement on citizenship rights protected by the CJEU and money, there will be no future relationship).
2. The question what order matters are negotiated in is, par excellence, a question of political assessment and not one for judicial dictat.
2a. (No judge will, because no judge is qualified to, tell politicians they must negotiate political matters in a particular way.)
3. David Davis claims he has an EU right to have negotiations over withdrawal agreement and future relationship decided together. But!
3a. Who does he make that claim to? The only court that can adjudicate upon it is the CJEU - whose jurisdiction Davis says he must escape.
3b. Is it Davis' plan to sue the EU in the CJEU for insisting the CJEU has jurisdiction over citizenship rights? Good luck with that!
3c. (Although Davis has found it possible in the past simultaneously to complain bitterly about the CJEU and ask it to enforce his rights.)
The whole interview is extraordinary. We still seem to think we'll have our cake and eat it. The EU will give way and that will be that.

Or you could be completely irrational and strop out of talks crying NOT FAIR and then find out the hard way what that means.

Btw. Have we established that we can be a WTO member yet? Or are we crashing out at the end of June without that too.

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Corcory · 14/05/2017 17:35

Howabout, I live amongst the SNP too and couldn't agree with you more. The vitriol spouted by SNP supporters about the Tory party has to be seen to be believed. One very good example of it was on a face book post I was sent yesterday. It was from Robert Mackenzie conservative candidate for Ross, Skye and Lochaber. He has paid £47 to have it posted all over Scotland to anyone who had shown an interest in politics or had political views. It really is worth reading the comments by the SNP supporters. It really shows what we, Tory supporters have to put up with here in Scotland. It is verging on deep predigest against anyone with an alternative view to themselves, anyone better off or anyone English, although the candidate isn't English and is from the constituency born and breed it is presumed he has to go back down south!
As far as I'm concerned the views of many SNP are as bad as these of the far right and the BNP when it comes to their deeply predigest utterings.
Some of the deeply unpleasant things put on face book by some of my 'friends' have to be seen to be believed. Apparently if you vote Tory you are the lowest of the low - rich, selfish, and uncaring. You can't possibly be anything else, you can't possibly have any feelings for the less fortunate and you would never do anything for the local community and are only interested in feathering your own nest. All of these views are exhorted with very unpleasant abuse and vitriol, which just astounds me.
I just don't know where this behaviour has come from.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2017 17:36

HowAbout Being mixed race may be why open racism is at the top of my shit list wrt UK and Scottish politics. Ahead of any other issue, even competence or sticky fingers

I can never know what someone really thinks about me / race; that's their private business.
However, when a governing party has so many open racists among their politicians - as the Tories currently do - then they are my enemy; they are not just politicians with whose views I disagree.

I'll never forget that right after the Brexit Ref how NS said that all the immigrants in Scotland were welcome and valued there.

The Tory govt gave no such assurances.
In fact, their attitude is still at most grudging tolerance and it is one of their red lines, that the rights of EU expats must be reduced to the lowest common denominator.

I find it notable, btw, how much NS is demonised in the media and by Unionist voters as some kind of bogeywoman - certainly not a "sanitized view".

The Tory media boost the fascist nationalist Le Pen as their hero, but cast the rather mundane middle of the road nationalism of the SNP and NS as the devil incarnate.

I won't forget how many from Scots Labour flocked to support the Tories - and I expect after a few years of May's Tory govt that more Scottish voters will remember who stood up against her -and who voted for her.

MrsSummerisle · 14/05/2017 17:52

From yesterday's YouGov:

yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/voting-intention-conservatives-49-labour-31-11-12-/

Do you think that Jeremy Corbyn is doing well or badly as leader of the Labour Party?

Well 15%
Badly 67%
DK 17%

Net favourability: -52

Do you think that Donald Trump is doing well or badly as President of the United States?

Well 20%
Badly 66%
DK 15%

Net favourability: -46

Oh dear Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2017 17:53

Despising people because of their policies - i.e. what they actually do - such as cutting disability benefits or the nhs, is quite different to despising someone because of their skin colour or ethnic origin.
The Orange Order - that bastion of Unionism in Scotland and NI - additionally despise Catholics and target them.

There are many English & Welsh people who post that they hate Tories, because of their policies.
"bettering yourself" by voting against taxes to help vulnerable people can cause a lot of anger.
Trampling on the vulnerable to help yourself climb a bit higher on the greasy pole.

This pitiless hard right Tory Party - nothing like the One Nation Tory party of my youth - are hated by many on the left and the centre. And the centre right like me, who feel betrayed and outraged.
Not just in Scotland.

I fear that 5 years of a hard right Tory govt, with no effective opposition, may be the final straw for the Union.
I also fear that in 10 years or so the pendulum may swing to the other extreme in England and an angry, cheated, electorate may vote for a new hard left Labour leader with much more extreme policies than Corbyn

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2017 17:57

www.iaindale.com/posts/2017/05/13/the-85-seats-that-will-change-hands-on-june-8th-probably

Iain Dale's predictions for seat changes. I note a number are different to Lord Ashcroft's. He has the Cons getting fewer seats, the Greens making a gain, plaid holding better, the SNP losing less and the LDs doing better against the Cons and with several gains from Labour (though I note not Vauxhall).

Ashcroft has all three Stoke seats turning blue. Dale doesn't. Dale is also a lot more charitable to the LDs - and suggests they will get Cheltenham, Lewes and Thornbury and Yate. But curiously not Edinburgh West.

Make of it all what you will.

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BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2017 18:00

I'm outraged at a time of national crisis, when the Uk needs an effective opposition that looks like an alternative govt, the Labour party gives us.... Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott.

That's something that has angered and repelled many voters
Labour may never be forgiven.

After the GE, if there is the expected Tory landslide, I hope Labour finally split.
The hard left can go off on their own, so the moderate left and centre can actually get on with the job of offering an electable alternative to hard right Toryism.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2017 18:02

Ashcroft is not a neutral party

BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2017 18:04

The far right and the far left have a common interest:

they need economic disaster, because those are the only circumstances under which either would be elected

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