Anyone else find this terrifying?

[HPFA]

twitter.com/sanglesey/status/854580175530594305

What road are we heading down here???

They could never satisfy all remainers, but then they also can't satisfy all leavers either.
I put myself in the remainer-who-reluctantly-accepts-Brexit-has-to-happen camp. I'm not denying that many remainers want to block it altogether, but I don't think there's any real chance of that happening, and many feel like me: That Brexit is a mistake, but it doesn't have to be a disaster.

It suits hard line brexiteers to imply that anyone who is even slightly critical about any aspect of the government's approach to the negotiations is a treacherous saboteur who wants to overturn the referendum result, but that is not the case at all.

I have tried to be optimistic, initially I was glad when TM became PM (even though her politics are very different to my own) but at every turn her and her senior politicians have disappointed me with their antagonistic, unprofessional, disorganised approach, needlessly going for the hardest brexit possible, driven by right wing ideology and without any compassion shown towards those who have built a life here in good faith.
They have basically become UKIP, as far as I'm concerned.

initially I was glad when TM became PM (even though her politics are very different to my own)

Thought she was the best of a bad bunch but not now. To be honest, I now dislike her more than Thatcher. There is a vindictive nastiness about her. She abused Corbyn in the Commons for sending his son to a grammar even though it's known he divorced his wife over it. I read in a newspaper today that apparently the Tories are going to use the fact he did that to portray him as a weirdo prepared to sacrifice his child. It's that sort of thing which disgusts me about her.

She has Corbyn beat anyway - what's the necessity for this?

I think she is smarter, and more capable than many in her party (certainly the ones she was up against in the leadership contest!) If she was going into Brexit negotiations to negotiate for the sort of Brexit I want, I would be cautiously optimistic in her ability to achieve it.
The intolerance for any dissenting view annoys me enormously - surely a range of opinions would be best when deciding upon such a massive change in Britain's direction? Only listening to one extreme wing (whichever side that is) does not lead to well thought out decisions. MPs walking out of committee meetings when they are not told what they want to hear is bad for the country.

I also don't see what is to be gained by needlessly pissing off her European counterparts before negotiations begin - the language coming from her government has been embarrassingly unprofessional, and like you say, vindictive and nasty. It's a highly complex negotiation, not a prize fight, wtf is with all the trash talk?

Johnson, Davies and Fox are just incompetent. I seriously question TM's judgement in putting them in charge of anything.

How many remainers do you think would be advocating overturning the referendum result if they thought they were being listened to or that a sensible negotiating strategy was being pursued?

How many leavers would have voted leave if they had thought they were being listened to when they expressed concern about the impact of uncontrolled immigration on their towns? Instead they got Gordon Brown dismissing a voter as a bigoted woman, and people calling them racists and xenophobes. It's not why I voted leave, but it's why a lot of people did.

I basically feel like squishy, Wrong.

The key for me is unprofessional. Does anyone really think that's it's a good idea to enter negotiations with a longstanding ally by antagonising and insulting them? It's just clueless. I want calmness, order, professionalism. I have seen very little of this, just silly hubris.

There is a good number of both leave and remain voters that would like to remain in the single market and this could at least have been acknowledged. Or suggestions put forward (or even a plan) for what will replace the industries that will be significantly affected when we leave the single market. Just hasn't happened. Hence, zero confidence.

Cross post with squishy

I am not saying that wasn't a factor, Flavia, but in general the areas with the least immigration were the most likely to vote leave, and the areas with the highest immigration were the most likely to vote remain.
So I don't think you can argue that voters were pushed into voting leave because their towns had been adversely affected by uncontrolled immigration.
More likely (imo) that towns in strong leave areas had been changed beyond recognition for other reasons, but that people latched onto immigration being to blame, partly because certain politicians and media outlets pushed that narrative, and partly because immigrants have always been a useful scapegoat.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/voting-details-show-immigration-fears-were-paradoxical-but-decisive

I agree with Squishy and HPFA. May was definitely the best of a poor field. Her opening speech in her bid for the leadership was all about slagging Johnson off, not telling us about her own vision, (I assume that is because she doesn't have one). She then found out that Johnson wasn't standing, so IMO looked a little stupid. That was soon forgotten. At the first PMQs she continued with the hectoring tone, and at that stage I thought 'No, you are wrong for this job'. We desperately need healing and reconciling, plus cool heads. What did we get? A Tory conference which was a delight for the racists and inflamed tensions further.

Re Gordon Brown and the bigotted woman comment. We discussed this on one of these threads a few months ago. It surprised us all, when playing the interview back, (it can be found on YouTube) that she only mentioned immigrants once in passing. But we have had this conversation about immigration over and over again in the last ten months - the people who voted Leave in large measure are not much affected by immigration. They are not being listened to, I agree, but the problems cannot be laid at the door of immigration. Nor will their problems be solved by changing the countries the immigrants come from, which is the most likely scenario.

I'm an ardent remainer but agree with almost all of squishy's post above.

I think she is smarter, and more capable than many in her party (certainly the ones she was up against in the leadership contest!)

Yes - I don't think she is stupid - she's just inflexible and lacking in finesse, and she is very poor at the psychology of leadership. I think she might have been able to negotiate an acceptable brexit settlement (acceotable to the broad middle ground of remainers and leavers open to compromise) - but only with a following wind, and supportive MPs. One issue is that she has little self-awareness and doesn't seem to understand how others see and react to her (not good if you are entering difficult negotiations).

The intolerance for any dissenting view annoys me enormously - surely a range of opinions would be best when deciding upon such a massive change in Britain's direction? Only listening to one extreme wing (whichever side that is) does not lead to well thought out decisions. MPs walking out of committee meetings when they are not told what they want to hear is bad for the country.

Yes, and this has had a huge impact on public discourse. It actively prevents people moving on. If I was mostly bored of brexit, and ready to accept a softish, trade oriented solution 3 months after the referendum, I'm not any longer: I am bitterly opposed to what's happening, and more politically active (and angry) than I have ever been in my life.

I also don't see what is to be gained by needlessly pissing off her European counterparts before negotiations begin - the language coming from her government has been embarrassingly unprofessional, and like you say, vindictive and nasty. It's a highly complex negotiation, not a prize fight, wtf is with all the trash talk?

100% agree. The attitude is utterly perplexing. It suggests a poor grasp of the complexity of the task at hand, and a lack of respect for the people on the other side of the table (who certainly have a much better grasp of the issues). It's the act of someone who doesn't believe that they can win the argument.

Johnson, Davies and Fox are just incompetent. I seriously question TM's judgement in putting them in charge of anything.

I thought it was tactical, but now I just think it was a terrible misjudgement.

Hmmm, like the areas of the southwest I grew up in. Very, very few immigrants (we're talking about some pretty isolated areas here), literally in the tens, yet a significant vote for leave.

Oh my god squishy has said what i am thinking

That's exactly it

On the threads on mumsnet and the papers the days after it was very much remainers lost...within days it was implied that remainers views didnt count....a few more days and it was traitors and enemies of the people and saboteurs

Aimed at the losers! Talk about kicking someone when they are down

No one else has just typed that have they???

Nope...safe

and she is very poor at the psychology of leadership.
Ultimately that will be her undoing, and it may come sooner than she expects. She doesn't mix with people, but in that sort of leadership role she needs to. She is, I would say, much better suited to a number two or three role - the sort of person who would hear a leader announce grand schemes but who wouldn't have the foggiest of how to execute them, but she would go away and flesh out the detail and together they would be a good team. But she's not an ideas person.

I actually now wonder who pulled her strings to go for the election? The Guardian editorial refers to a screeching u-turn, which doesn't make her look good.

Like others, I have now become much more politically active than I used to be.

Going against the flow, I'm not convinced that May is a smart person at all. If remain had won the referendum or even if Gove hadn't stabbed Johnson in the back, she would never have got close to the leadership and would have gone down to posterity as a mediocre plodder.

"She doesn't mix with people, but in that sort of leadership role she needs to."

• Yes, she seems to have had a lot of career success with keeping her head down and not being very visible to the public, but I don't think that tactic is appropriate for a PM. She certainly doesn't seem overly keen to engage much with the public, or even with the media - her refusal to take part in televised debates is further evidence of this. Although apparently, this is fine because she plans to turn up on our doorsteps instead.

How many leavers would have voted leave if they had thought they were being listened to when they expressed concern about the impact of uncontrolled immigration on their towns?

Flavia, this was a part of the whole Blair government shtick of trying to do things they thought were right but being unwilling to convince voters of the necessity for them. It was the same with ridiculous stealth taxes and ever-rising council tax - them simply refusing to make a case for taxes being a necessity if we want good public services.

They felt immigration was necessary for maintaining economic growth but hoped no-one would notice it. Was never going to work.

this is fine because she plans to turn up on our doorsteps instead.

What now ?

Dh says that she always uncomfortable like she doesn't think she should be there

Whenever i see her in meetings with world leaders she always looks a bit lost

She was apparently terrible on Radio 4 this morning - a leading Conservative commentator (@montie) described her as producing "vacuous soundbite after vacuous soundbite".

described her as producing "vacuous soundbite after vacuous soundbite".
She seems to be getting away with it though, so far.

I have realised one good thing about this headline:
Often, when those of us who are centre/left of centre complain about public discourse moving to the right, and raise fears of fascism, moderate conservatives and centre right people get a bit defensive and point out that not all fascists are right wing, and that the far right and the far left have a lot in common etc etc.
Well, given that the DM is channeling Lenin here, we can hold this up as an example of fascism that everyone should be frightened of - left and right. Inclusive opposition to divisive rhetoric.

Frankly, yesterday was not a good day for those of us who were naïve enough to believe they were living in a liberal society. Not only do we have the Mail treating parliamentary opposition as the enemy to be crushed, we also have Tim Farron being harassed to give his own private thoughts on homosexuality. Perfectly legitimate to question his voting record (although opinion seems to differ on whether his record is good or bad) but whatever private thoughts he has are his alone.