Anyone else find this terrifying?

[HPFA]

twitter.com/sanglesey/status/854580175530594305

What road are we heading down here???

You'll see I've said people intent on Brexit, Wrong. I am talking specifically about this election, rather than life in general. During this election, I genuinely think there is no point reaching out to those set to leave- they will side with whoever says Brexit by whatever means possible. We already see that in lexiters saying they'll vote Tory just to achieve this. So you can bang on about the NHS, education etc (as a politician, not you personally) but if people are willing to ignore all of that for the sake of Brexit then it's a bit pointless. Whereas 48% of the electorate DIDNT vote for this. I don't want them to be suckered in by racist mail headlines. I want the remain side to fight hard and to meet the brexiters head on. This election is basically about Brexit and we need gloves off, cold hard truths.

People need to be reminded that Theresa May says one thing and does another. The most famous now being her U-turn about not calling an election. Who can trust a word she says now?

I don't think any left wing or centre paper has gone on about traitors, enemies of the people etc. in the way that the Mail and Express have done

No, I wasn't suggesting they have, sorry if I was unclear. They have gone for calling leave voters idiots and racists (they have put it more subtly than that, on the whole).

The Guardian, the Independent and even the New Statesman have published some really nasty bile against leave voters. We can get into an argument about whether it's worse being called a traitor (Mail) or an ally to a racist murderer (Guardian, specifically P Toynbee) - I think being called an ally of a racist murderer is worse, myself - but I think it is not really the point.

squishy No, they are not all the same people and I didn't mean to imply they are.

I understand what you are saying wrong

But have their been any newspaper headlines saying that people who voted leave are enemies of the people, traiters and saboteurs?

And yes people name calling on here is boring and pathetic...but if this was a school yard then the mail having a pop is the equivalent of the teacher agreeing with little jonny that billy is indeed a little shit

I know that most people can look beyond a headline...but honestly some people really can't

CROSS POST!!!!

God i am so slow at typing!!!!

Ignore!!!!

Well don't ignore

That would be rude...but I appreciate tha it has been answered

We already have 'a lot of political problems' due, IMO, to all parties treating remain voters as if they didn't exist. There's been no acknowledgement from any party that the vote was exceptionally close and having the mainstream press talking about 'enemies of the people' and 'saboteurs' is doing nothing but fan the flames of division. I'd like you to answer your own question: do you think that is going to help get this country sorted out?

No, it's not helpful. I said in my first post that the Mail headline is crass. It's unhelpful, divisive, damaging for politics' and democracy, inflammatory etc, etc.

And I think the issue of the closeness of the vote and the wishes of remain voters does need addressing by the political parties. How to do this when many remainers have been advocating overturning the referendum result, I genuinely don't know. What would you have liked to see in this regard?

Well, it's circular isn't it? How many remainers do you think would be advocating overturning the referendum result if they thought they were being listened to or that a sensible negotiating strategy was being pursued? I would like the result overturned because I don't think the current government are competent enough to pursue it. If they'd given me ANY indication that they were, or even behaved remotely sensibly then I would, if not actively support it, then at least accept it.

So Bolshy is your feeling that this GE is effectively a rerun of the referendum? People who are set on Brexit should (not should but you know what I mean) vote Tory and people strongly against should vote for whichever party they think will best oppose it?

The problem as I see it with what you are saying about "giving up" on leave voters for this election is that politics doesn't work like that. The Labour party is already in a very odd place, so far removed from its traditional support base and in my view, completely out of touch with huge swathes of people. If it goes through this campaign ignoring leave voters and not trying to resolve the divisions, this will get worse. It won't be able to just reconnect with people at a later stage - it doesn't work like that.

Perhaps you are right and most leave voters will vote Tory at this GE. Even if they do, they might be holding their noses whilst they do so.

It really would not have been hard to satisfy at least a good chunk of remainers, but it meant going against the hard right of the Tory party. May made her choice.

I think that this is about Brexit, May has already told us that it is! Labour are screwed regardless- their policies are all over the place and faith in Corbyn is non-existent. I think people will either vote for local issues or for Brexit.

I don't think people should vote Tory if they support Brexit, but I think they will tbh.

If Labour pander to their leave voters then they lose their remain voters. We've already seen them trying to walk this tightrope pretty unsuccessfully. They will lose voters to cons one way and lib dems the other.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/04/crush-saboteurs-daily-mail-just-says-what-theresa-may-thinking

"Understandably, Theresa May didn't want to kick off her campaign talking about her own impotence. It makes political sense to claim that there are enemies abroad who have to be defeated at the polls.

But if we're going to talk about rhetoric that corrodes democracy, we should start at the steps of Downing Street, and not at the offices of the Mail

"Not to defend the Mail but their splash can't even be described as the subtext of May's address kicking of the contest yesterday - it's just the text"

She said it.

As in "She started her campaign talking about how Brexit was under threat because of those wreckers in Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP".

I'm aware I am straying into the territory of saying "they started it" but whilst you Bolshy might have been willing to accept the referendum result if circumstances were different, there were many people on 24th June, before any steps had been taken, calling for a rerun. Which is bizarre, in a way and I think set things off down a very divisive path. From the polls I think a good proportion of remain voters are content with the way Brexit is heading. Would the more strongly remain minded have ever been happy with anything less than staying in the EU and keeping FOM? I think that agreeing to maintain the rights of EU nationals would have been a helpful move (I'm sure it will happen anyway, but it would have been conciliatory to confirm it at an early stage).

Cross posts all over the place on this thread rufus

How many remainers do you think would be advocating overturning the referendum result if they thought they were being listened to or that a sensible negotiating strategy was being pursued?

Absolutely this. Many Remainers would have been happy with a Norway type solution -I certainly would. When this option was portrayed as being anti-democratic then it pretty well told Remainers that their opinions weren't valid.

My puzzle with some of the Brexit debate is precisely because I don't think Leavers are racist, thick etc. I assumed they voted as I did, because they thought it was best for the country. What I still don't get is the way Brexit seems to have become an end in itself, so that when any problem with it is pointed out, the response is "we must have Brexit anyway". If you decide that Brexit isn't going to give you the things you wanted from it why would it be so upsetting to say "Oh, well, let's stay in after all"

If in a few years time we are more prosperous, still have all our rights
and are not beholden to the US I'll be happy enough to admit I was wrong.

You'd have thought that labour leave voters are much more likely to stay at home than to vote Tory, especially after all the headlines showing that TM is expected to romp home without a contest in any event.

The ref vote was an unusually high turn out, and for many of those who don't usually vote, it will be 'job done'. Why expect them to vote again so soon, especially if it involves nose-holding - and for the Tories? I don't think so.

So yes, she'll win, but not necessarily with the stonking mandate she is hoping for?

So yes, she'll win, but not necessarily with the stonking mandate she is hoping for?

This is why I'm out campaigning. I know she'll win but there is a small chance that her majority can be reduced from what she is hoping for. And I'm contributing to that small chance.

One prominent person who conceded early, and then had to take his words back, but would most definitely have called for a rerun, was no other than Nigel Farage. If that was good enough for the Leave camp then who is in a position to criticise the Remain camp for doing likewise?

I hadn't noticed any Remainers being content with the way that Theresa May was handling Brexit, which is not quite the same as the way it's going, because in the better part of ten months, it hasn't gone very far, and the clock is now ticking.

The country won't be able to manage without younger able bodied immigrants, and I daresay that a good many people will wonder what exactly they did vote for when they see more Asian and African immigrants.

Single Market for me, wrong. That's a red line for me. Less divisive language from May and Johnson would have helped. May has repeatedly targeted remainers in her speeches and I'm pretty sick of it.

Honestly though, just sounding grown up and competent would have at least calmed me and made me feel reassured that we could make something workable out of Brexit. The lies though, the about-faces, the silly promises that they have zero chance of keeping, the treatment of EU nationals, the blaming everything on the EU (Johnson is terrible for this), none of it is reassuring. We need grown up politicians to lead these incredibly difficult, complex negotiations and I just don't think we have them right now in either of the main parties.

Even as a leaver, can you honestly, hand on your heart say that the current government have the skills needed to deliver a decent deal?

One prominent person who conceded early, and then had to take his words back, but would most definitely have called for a rerun, was no other than Nigel Farage. If that was good enough for the Leave camp then who is in a position to criticise the Remain camp for doing likewise?

Pegrina Farage does not speak for or represent "the leave camp". If NF makes statement A and voted the same way in the referendum as me, or any other leave voter, this does not mean we agree with statement A.

I hadn't noticed any Remainers being content with the way that Theresa May was handling Brexit, which is not quite the same as the way it's going, because in the better part of ten months, it hasn't gone very far, and the clock is now ticking

I was referring to the recent polls YouGov and Ashcroft. I will have another look, perhaps I am reading too much into them.

Bolshy I meant to write "staying in the single market" when I wrote "staying in the EU", Freudian slip.

I think the problem is that the single market would be a red line too for many leave voters and this is where is gets very tricky. You can only compromise within what each side is prepared to concede and perhaps there is not enough common ground for leavers and remainers to be happy.

I actually am confident in TM's and the gov's ability to negotiate a good deal. I am prepared to admit the language from the gov could have been more conciliatory but on the whole, I think TM has handled a very difficult situation well. I would say I have never voted Tory in my life.

However much people protest, for many Farage did represent the Leave camp. He was the Leader of UKIP which is/was a party with the sole issue of seeking a Leave vote. Yes, I know that he was toxic to the official camp, but he didn't shut up; who can say that his ghastly racist poster didn't swing a good few votes?

YouGov Polls are a self selecting bunch. Theresa May might think they represent the general feeling, but I suspect that they don't. It is hard to judge, because we all tend to mix with like minded people. Still 5,000 new people joining the Lib Dems yesterday suggests that many don't agree with May.