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Brexit

New EU immigration regulations may lead to deportations

597 replies

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 13:02

Article on new HO regulations concerning the rights of EU citizens in the UK:

www.freemovement.org.uk/briefing-legal-status-eu-citizens-uk/

On the face of it, these new rules would appear to give the HO the right to deport any EU citizen without permanent residency rights, who is not currently exercising treaty rights and who does not have private health insurance. This will include many EU spouses of UK citizens who are not currently working and cannot document a 5 year period during which they exercised treaty rights - regardless of the amount of time they have spent in the UK.

This gives a whole new slant to those HO letters suggesting that EU citizens make plans to leave. Might be time for affected EU citizens to consider legal advice :-/

(Weird and hostile way of opening negotiations with the EU27 over migrants' rights - I am coming to the conclusion that May may actually want the negotiations to fail).

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woman12345 · 05/03/2017 08:20

“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

Taxes are the price of privilege.
Cheap at the price, if he's looking to provoke those who subsidise it.

Mistigri · 05/03/2017 08:21

Some Sunday reading for EU nationals, and for anyone else who has a conscience and cares about good governance.

Jonathan Portes on the HoC Brexit Committee report on EU citizens' rights:

ukandeu.ac.uk/eu-citizens-rights-the-brexit-committee-report/

(Contains a link to the report, but which doesn't work for me).

Dr Mike Ward on the practical hurdles to doing this and why the government needs to act now to create a simple process, if they are to avoid millions of workers finding that they have overnight become illegal immigrants on 1st April 2019:

badreason99.blogspot.fr/2017/01/theres-no-place-like-home-office.html

And, on a practical note, if you are struggling to construct a list of your travel movements for your PR application: just ask the home office to do it for you! Mike Ward explains how:

badreason99.blogspot.fr/2017/03/how-to-fight-home-office-and-win.html

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Peregrina · 05/03/2017 08:31

And, on a practical note, if you are struggling to construct a list of your travel movements for your PR application: just ask the home office to do it for you! Mike Ward explains how:

I love it. If all 3 million EU citizens did the same, the Home Office might just realise how bl**dy stupid they are being.

woman12345 · 05/03/2017 08:33

misti www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmexeu/1071/107107.htm#_idTextAnchor030

Some extracts from this report:
" If large numbers of UK citizens of retirement age return from Spain, this would put additional pressure on the NHS and social care system. It is possible that some of these returning retirees might not be eligible for treatment on the NHS if they are not considered ordinarily resident in the UK.

The permanent residence application process

54.The permanent residence card application system has received considerable criticism. Anne-Laure Donskoy, Co-Chair of the 3million, said that her organisation was receiving a lot of inquiries around the process. She said:

There is a sense of urgency and that we are having to justify a right to stay already at the moment. That in itself is causing a lot of anxiety because the process is a bureaucratic nightmare of Kafkaesque proportions. We all know about the form. There is an unreasonable burden of evidence put on the applicant.

55.The information required is onerous. The Home Office asks for documentation preceding the five year period for which the applicant is demonstrating residence and asks to know whether an applicant has ever received any welfare benefits and how much have been received, “from day dot, not just those five years.” Ms Donskoy demonstrated to us that she had accumulated three to four kilograms of paperwork for an application that represented “just over half of what it will be like at the end of the day.” Ms Donskoy said she was being asked for paperwork covering every time she had left the country over the past 30 years. Sunder Katwala, British Future, confirmed that applicants had to show evidence of each time they had left the country so they could demonstrate they had not been outside the country for 450 days across the five years, or for 90 days in a year.87

56.Barbara Drozdowicz was concerned that applications had been turned down on the basis of incomplete evidence. She argued that this represented an unjustifiable hurdle:

So, my life in Britain might be evidenced beyond reason over the last five years, but 17 years ago I might not have kept something. This is questionable practice and that is appealable practice, because, as far as guidance goes, permanent residence relates to the last five years. Therefore, whatever happened earlier should not be part of it.

63.The current process by which EU nationals can apply for permanent residence using an 85 page form and requiring copious supporting evidence is too complex and onerous for clarifying the status of up to three million people. The Committee observes that the application process is disproportionately burdensome, and questions why it involves collection of information which goes far beyond what is required to prove residence over a 5-year period.

We call on the Government, as a matter of urgency, to look to streamline the system. While there will always be complex cases that require detailed consideration, it should be possible to clarify the status of the vast majority of individuals simply using a localised and streamlined system as proposed by British Future*

*The Government must not create or retain a system with unrealistic administrative and technical hurdles, so that a substantial proportion of applications are declared invalid or refused. To do so runs the risk of either directing a large number of individuals into an appeal mechanism, prolonging their anxiety and further draining Home Office resources, or leaving a number of individuals who fail in their application and decide to stay living and working illegally in the UK.

Letters which reject applications for permanent residence should not be accompanied by the words “Prepare to leave the UK” unless there are grounds for removal because the applicant does not have a right to remain*.

Mistigri · 05/03/2017 08:48

Thanks woman

Ms Donskoy said she was being asked for paperwork covering every time she had left the country over the past 30 years. Sunder Katwala, British Future, confirmed that applicants had to show evidence of each time they had left the country so they could demonstrate they had not been outside the country for 450 days across the five years, or for 90 days in a year.

People need to follow Mike Ward's advice above and use FOI to get the information on them that the government holds. What's more, it seems that some of the information they hold on his wife is wrong; someone really punctilious might require under data protection law that the information held be rectified.

The whole system would collapse if enough people did this.

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woman12345 · 05/03/2017 08:59

EU citizens who have been living in the UK for five years at the point we leave the EU will already have a right to remain. The Government should make clear that these individuals will be entitled to permanent residence.

Peregrina · 05/03/2017 09:03

What's more, it seems that some of the information they hold on his wife is wrong; someone really punctilious might require under data protection law that the information held be rectified. The whole system would collapse if enough people did this.

I think that's the key. As Dr Ward says, all Bureaucracies have Achilles heels, and put spikes in your way, which can be used as weapons. With the pen being mightier than the sword.

Mistigri · 05/03/2017 09:24

What will happen in practice - watch this space - is that hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of workers will find themselves without valid papers on 1st April 2019.

As Portes says in the article linked to above, it will be employers on whom the burden of administrating this mess will fall. They face legal action and fines, or worse, if they employ illegal immigrants.

The takeaway is that the government's position is untenable - any system for maintaining rights needs to be simple and easy to administer, with a low refusal rate in order to limit the number of appeals (the current refusal rate is close to 30%).

It's utterly bizarre that May won't concede this point, especially given that fighting a pointless battle (or battles) with the Lords introduces yet more delay before A50 is triggered.

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RedAndYellowPeppers · 05/03/2017 09:29

It is worth remembering thought that EU citizens have NOT lost any rights yet and are NOT staying illegally in the country either.
The rethoric is dangerous. It in effect says that some or most EU citizens are NOW illegals - because they will be in two years time so one assume- and that, in two years time (or before?? See the new directive starting this thread) these people will be removed from the country.
I wish people would use the right words because THIS is propaganda in its simplest form.

For what deportation could look like, maybe look at what is happening in the US atm. And also how quickly it can be implemented.

woman12345 · 05/03/2017 09:34

And since February landlords are border police:

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/housing/renting-a-home/immigration-checks-by-landlords/

^Checking that a tenant has a right to be in the country is a new legal requirement that the government has introduced for private landlords.
Landlords must check that the tenant, and any other adults who'll be living there, are in the country lawfully.
Anyone who rents accommodation to someone who isn't in the country lawfully without carrying out the checks can receive a penalty of up to £3,000 per tenant^
.

woman12345 · 05/03/2017 09:35

You know what sort of system co opts citizens like this?

Peregrina · 05/03/2017 10:11

Shh, woman - don't remind them. They get very touchy about the issue.

Redpoll · 05/03/2017 10:29

What's no one grasps is that as with any policy it has to be comprehensive enough so it is not full of loopholes-
I stand by what I say, there will be always a category of individual who may generally have more than adequate right to remain but for some plausible reason might now have the right paperwork to prove that. That is where common sense needs to apply but as with anything a government does it had to be detailed.

You can create all you want on a social media site, even protest with a placard ouside Downing Street but you will not change government policy.

People who dream these all up are a lot more clever in their justifications than any of us and I beg anyone who can change it.

Do you think the average UK citizen wakes up every morning and cares about world hunger,poverty or an individual's plight? It's a common misconception if you do- you will find as with things such as this it is only a small minority which may be affected and not in the interests of most.
I voted leave and leave it is but I won't be typecast for the reasons I chose to leave and the only person who knows those reasons are me.

People are people (unfortunately)

Mistigri · 05/03/2017 10:38

People who dream these all up are a lot more clever in their justifications than any of us

Lol

Go and watch a brexit select committee at work. You'll be shocked (or you should be) at the lack of knowledge and, yes, intelligence on display from many of those involved.

The Northern Ireland select committee sessions on brexit were an absolute eye-opener to me. Most of these people are surprisingly ignorant of even fairly basic issues, and some of them (not all) are also rather stupid.

I'm happy to accept that these people are more knowledgeable and cleverer than redpoll, but s/he speaks for him/ herself!

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Slipperyknickers · 05/03/2017 10:44

Redpoll. I was a leaver too and sick of the assumptions. Most of these threads are being run by the same 3 people.

RedAndYellowPeppers · 05/03/2017 11:00

Red i agree with you.
And I am an eu citizen that will likely to be effected by the 'loophole'.

This is what is going to happen.

My guess is that there won't be some 'common sense' applied for those who are falling the loopholes. At least not from what I have seen happening with the first part of the immigration policy, which has affected the non eu citizens.

And tbf, this is the uk prerogative.

I do have an issue because, obviously, this is impacting me negatively.
It is also impacting negatively my British children and my British husband.
This is impacting negatively a lot of other British and non British people.
And it is impacting negatively too all those voters who voted Leave or remain but didn't want to see that happening - the (mass?) deportation, the loopholes etc...

Redpoll · 05/03/2017 11:04

I will be the first to admit that a government select committee are more clever than I, that is why they act in that capacity, and indeed I do speak for myself, and indeed my only concern is what directly affects me.

If people really think that a vote by an individual is based on their thought for others then they are clearly mistaken. As much as a take you wish to put on it the average person places their vote with with what they think is good for themselves as an individual.

The bottom line is we are out of the EU now applied by democratic vote and we must now as a country accept the outcome from it.

Crikey people need to look at their history books a little. The British empire has not had too good a work history when it comes to human rights right from the 17th century through to after the Second World War.

There won't be many affected by it, and as the saying goes no good crying over something that has not happened.

The way people are carrying on anyone would think there will be families marched off against their will by the end of the week.

jaws5 · 05/03/2017 11:26

bottom line is we are out of the EU now applied by democratic vote. Really? I must have missed it in the news!
The way people are carrying on anyone would think there will be families marched off against their will by the end of the week Well, the lack of empathy and understanding is shocking, and do you think we (EU nationals) want to stay here at any cost? Many of us have jobs, homes, mortgages and children going GCSEs, as well as British partners whose position in the EU will be uncertain to say the least. That's why we're still here!

jaws5 · 05/03/2017 11:31

Even hardliners like Gove have come out demanding TM guarantees EU citizens rights, and called her position "unacceptable", so you empathy-lacking lot are starting to look a bit silly. However, I am aware of Gove's history of backstabbing so I suspect this is to do with the discrediting of TM with a view to premiership when she finally falls...

RedAndYellowPeppers · 05/03/2017 11:35

The bottom line is we are out of the EU now applied by democratic vote
The uk is NOT out of the EU, actually it hasn't even started the process as the Art50 hasn't been riggers yet.
I think it is dangerous to say things like this because it is then very easy to assume that the uk can act AS IF it was out of the EU.

There won't be many affected by it, and as the saying goes no good crying over something that has not happened.
This where it is actually impossible to know. It might be that very few will be affected by it. It might be that a lot of people will be. The truth though is that, once things have happened, this is when it WILL be too late to cry and do anything about it. The time to do something is BEFORE.
That's why some people are acting now, maybe crying wolf, to try and prevent the worst happening. And maybe they are too pessimistic. But what if they aren't? Would you be happy to live with the worst consequences of having thousands and thousands of families deported? And the knock off effect it will have for the UK (negative btw as the reaction to the US attitude is also negative overall in the world)

TheElementsSong · 05/03/2017 11:46

YY jaws and Red

<strong>If people really think that a vote by an individual is based on their thought for others then they are clearly mistaken.</strong>

Also I find this comment rather ironic, seeing as (on other threads) certain Leavers have been castigating Remainers, or in fact <span class="italic">anybody</span> who has said that they favour a guarantee for migrants, as all being migrants (or related to migrants) and thus having selfishly voted entirely for their own interests; by contrast, they claim, the Leave vote was a selfless act of caring for the good of the nation untainted by the stain of foreign connections.
woman12345 · 05/03/2017 11:51

Leavers are victims, elements

Caprianna · 05/03/2017 11:51

I do not think lots of families will be deported, but I think what will happen is that lots of people who have lived here for years, decades will lose their rights. Rights to a pension, access to NHS and benefits if they need them. My guess is that those who don't worry and think others are moaning don't actually have anything to worry about being British citizens with no interest in ever going to live in another European country.

Slipperyknickers · 05/03/2017 11:52

Redpoll sorry... can't agree with you there. I understand the worry people like redandyellow have for their futures. I hope something can be sorted out and at the monet there is nothing to tell us either way.
I voted leave I am glad the governme t will be negotiating this issue with its eu partners and feel that everyone will have a bether result from this than if it was applied after the hol vote.
I did not vote leave just for me, but for the future of everyone here so I don't much like what red said there.

I have to say though...I have been lurking here for a while on these threads and have seen people like me lambasted for leave votes, seen someone argue that the use of the word "bias" meant the user was influenced by alt
-reich websites, seen people being called imperial dickswingers, heard people say leave voters didn't understand what they were voting for and that by voting leave it was fair for them to be judged alongside xenophobes. I have also seen any concern expressed for people's futures derided as faux-concern.

I do not blame people if they stop listening and stop caring. I will probably get to that point soon.

Attitudes such as these will not help anyones cause.

whatwouldrondo · 05/03/2017 12:03

Slippery knickers Interesting to see how this rhetoric takes hold. I did not call anyone posting, let alone Leave voters imperial dick swingers. I made the point that post war Britain (a labour government) used Marshall Aid to hang on to its colonies in Africa and elsewhere in the face of independence movements, in order to support the U.K. Economy, instead of, as Germany did, using it to build infrastructure and implement a plan to build an efficient modern economy. That was the imperial dick swinging. I highlighted the parallels with this government who are doing nothing to address the need to build the infrastructure, especially in the North, to develop an economy that can compete in global markets post Brexit whilst talking about red white and blue Brexit and increased trade with the Commonwealth.....

However you seem so anxious to jump on to any percieved slight that you can translate that into calling Leave voters imperial dick swingers Hmm

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