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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris and The By-Elections

985 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2017 19:49

You lot post too fast!

A50 has made it out of the Commons without any amends. Its on its way to the Lords, but this week is half term, so in theory not much going on (in the UK at least). It hit the Lords on the 20th where it might not get such an easy ride. The Lords will not (and CAN NOT) stop brexit or frustrate it. But the numbers are in perhaps more favour of amendments if they choose to go that way, than the Commons. This would throw the bill back to the Commons. This is pretty reasonable.

In the meantime its 12 days to go until the Copeland and Stoke Central By-Elections.

Leave.Eu think UKIP have Stoke in the bag. They think there will be a 33% turnout. I think a turnout that high is the land of fantasy. Paul Nuttalls who was at Hillsborough is now a devout Stokie who has lived there all his life. Except of course he isn't.

Copeland looks like it will go Conservative. Its theirs to throw away. It would be the first victory for a sitting government in a by-election since 1983 if they make it. They intend to use a victory as another argument for a 'mandate'. But have they managed to drop a nuclear booboo?

One more Question. What are the chances of this thread making it to the 23rd?!

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woman12345 · 15/02/2017 21:17

swedish interesting and the DUP's involvement and what math said earlier about DUP's links to fellow travellers in S Africa and elsewhere.
Petition for Brokenshire in your link. ( the person not a new political party)

woman12345 · 15/02/2017 21:26

^Banks claims DUP demanded cash to back Leave.EU
The multi-millionaire UKIP donor who bankrolled a designation challenge to Vote Leave before the EU referendum campaign has claimed the Democratic Unionist Party might have backed him – for cash.
The News Letter reports Arron Banks’ assertion that Northern Ireland’s largest party demanded £30,000 a month to support him. The party insist this is “entirely false” and that the millionaire instead offered them money in a bid to woo them over.
With the ability to demonstrate cross-party support critical in what proved a very close-fought battle for the official designation, the DUP’s support could have made a critical difference – particularly as they were the only one of Britain’s front-rank regional parties to back Brexit.
Since the referendum the DUP have been drawing closer to the Conservatives, a development which won’t have pleased Banks, who still hopes to create a “right-wing Momentum” to challenge the established parties^
www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2016/11/henry-hill-brokenshire-sparks-row-with-dublin-over-contested-fishing-waters.html

mathanxiety · 15/02/2017 21:35

Wrt the DUP (and actually referencing Unionism in general, and the way it leans) - I posted these links in the previous thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn - Trump's former lawyer and mentor and member of the John Birch Society.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Goals_Foundation

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Goals_Institute
"Its list of Vice-Presidents included Professor Antony Flew, Professor Tryggvi McDonald, Rev. Martin Smyth, MP, Tory peer Lord Sudeley, Dr. Harvey Ward, former head of the Rhodesian Broadcasting Corporation (today the Zimbabwe Broadcasting Corporation), Colonel Barry Turner, Royal Engineers (retired), the Rev. Basil Watson, and Gregory Lauder-Frost of the Conservative Monday Club. The Directorate consisted, until the mid-1990s, of Andrew Smith, Stuart Notholt, Gideon Sherman (son of Sir Alfred Sherman), and others."

powerbase.info/index.php/Western_Goals_Institute
Notable activities
"WGI supported the continuance of apartheid policies in South Africa, and hosted a visit to the UK, in June 1989, by the hierarchy of the Conservative Party of South Africa, a hard-line breakaway from the National Party of South Africa, including its leader Dr. Andries Treurnicht. A press conference was held for the delegation in a committee room of the House of Lords on 5 June[10]. Conservative Party of South Africa MP Clive Derby-Lewis, then a member of the State President's Council, was made an honorary vice-president of the WGI. Western Goals may have supported the anti-communist cause with more than rhetoric. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (2 July 1993) lists the Western Goals Institute as an "impediment" to the elimination of racial discrimination in South Africa, saying of the Institute that it "claims to be devoted to protecting the Western way of life by offering self-defence training to white South Africans"[11].

On 25 September 1989, Baron Sudeley chaired a Western Goals dinner at Simpson's-in-the-Strand for El Salvador's President, Alfredo Cristiani, and his inner cabinet. The guest list included figures such as Sir Alfred Sherman (policy advisor to Margaret Thatcher), Nicholas Hervey, Antony Flew, Zigmunt Szkopiak, Denis Walker and Harvey Ward[12].

In Europe, Western Goals gave their open support to the French Front National, the populist far-right political party led by Jean-Marie Le Pen. On 12 October 1989, WGI hosted a controversial fringe meeting at the Conservative Party Conference in Blackpool, addressed by Front National Member of the European Parliament, Pierre Ceyrac. Western Goals also examined the possibility of links with the hard-right German party The Republicans, which in 1989 had six members in the European Parliament.

On 12 August 1989, a delegation from the Western Goals Institute attended a large anti-communist demonstration at Moln, near Lübeck, where 20,000 people had gathered. It was organized by Die Deutschen Konservativen e.V., which was led by another media personality, Joachim Siegerist, now a parliamentarian in Riga, with whom the WGI had contacts.[7]

The group hosted social events including an Annual Dinner at the Grosvenor Hotel at Victoria on 24 November 1989 when the guest of honour was Kenneth Griffith, who spoke out against non-white Third World immigration into Britain and Europe. On 20 November 1990, they hosted the General Franco Memorial Dinner, commemorating the anniversary of his death. This was also chaired by Baron Sudeley. A WGI notice in The Times stated that the late ruler of Spain was "remembered as a hero against communism". "

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Smyth
Former Grand Master of the Orange Order, Presbyterian minister, former vice president of the Western Goals Institute, former Ulster Unionist Party MP...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Monday_Club
"In October 1982, the Monday Club published its latest, slightly revised, policy on immigration. It called for:
Scrapping of the Commission for Racial Equality and Community Relations Councils.
Repeal of the race relations laws.
An end to the use of race or colour as criteria for the distribution of state benefits & loans.
An end to positive discrimination and all special treatment based upon race or colour.
An end to all further large-scale permanent immigration from the New Commonwealth.
An improved repatriation scheme with generous resettlement grants for all those from New Commonwealth countries who wish to take advantage of them.
The redesignation of the Ministry of Overseas Aid as a Ministry for Overseas Resettlement.

The club's position on immigration was reiterated in a letter in The Times from Lauder-Frost on the club's behalf in October 1991 where he stated that the annual levels of immigration "were unacceptable" and called for "the strictest possible entry to Britain for those of other cultures."[55]
Northern Ireland

Following an Official Irish Republican Army (IRA) bombing at Aldershot, Hampshire, in February 1972, club member and MP Jill Knight called for legislation to outlaw the Official IRA and its political wing, Official Sinn Féin. The club was opposed to the dismantling of the Stormont government in Northern Ireland and the imposition of direct rule.[56] On 7 September 1989, Lauder-Frost, on behalf of the Club, denounced "the disgraceful Anglo-Irish Agreement" in The Sun.

Controversies and criticism
The Guardian claimed in 1968 that the organisation was "probably the nearest British equivalent to the American John Birch Society".[57] It was claimed by opponents of the club that many members had drawn closer to the National Front, it being reported as early as 1973 that NF members were moving to take over branches of the club.[58] The bad publicity led to a crisis culminating in a series of purges, mainly in Club branches.[59]

In his Diaries, Alan Clark describes speaking to the Monday Club in 1982: 'I really cannot bear the Monday Club. They are all mad, quite different from its heyday, when it was a right-wing pressure group at the time of Ted Heath's Government. Now they are a prickly residue in the body politic, a nasty sort of gallstone.' [60]

The playwright David Edgar described the Monday Club, in 1986, as "proselytis[ing] the ancient and venerable conservative traditions of paternalism, imperialism and racism."[61]"

My conclusion wrt Brexit - no idea emerges in a vacuum.

woman12345 · 15/02/2017 21:36

On DUP and Trump links. Shared values on LGBT, abortion rights etc.
www.irishnews.com/news/2016/11/14/news/analysis-common-ideological-threads-link-trump-and-the-dup-781278/

GloriaGaynor · 15/02/2017 21:37

The Liverpool Echo seems to be getting stuck into Nuttall

Point and laugh.

woman12345 · 15/02/2017 21:48

no idea emerges in a vacuum Thanks for those links, math very interesting, looks like the Monday club is now the cabinet.

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 22:08

Nuttall is my sodding MEP. Not that he does anything anyway. And not that the next Kipper on the list is any better.

Nuttall is about to learn three things, regardless of whether he wins Stoke or not. 1) Scousers have long memories 2) Scousers don't let things just drop 3) Living in Bootle might not be as nice as it once was for him.

You would think, being a Scouser himself, he would understand this. (Not that a lot of Scousers consider him to be a Scouser) He also just broke Scouse Law - which is equally applicable in Stoke - don't shit on your own.

Its not something taught at public school. Farage and Banks have a nice excuse here. Nuttall quite frankly does not have that.

Mind you, Nuttall and the Echo have never been bezzies.

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/ukip-mep-paul-nuttall-brands-8505324
UKIP MEP Paul Nuttall brands BBC Question Time reaction 'appalling'

They published a tweet that said that Nuttall and Ester McVey were not proper scousers, referring to them as a Tory woollyback and a Bootle meff.

Paul Nuttall @paulnuttallukip From Jan 2015
Liverpool echo chose to highlight some really negative, biased comments tonight including one calling me a 'bad bootle ukip meff' Appalling.

There is a Liverpool FC supporters forum called the red and white kop, which has an ongoing thread dedicated to the Bad Bootle Meff Party.

www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=g1qkcdio8t3lsc4vvpsdhcg5f5&topic=311415.0

It was started in 2014 (before the QT incident) and is still ongoing after 72 pages. As you can imagine, its been posted on recently...

(I have to say that the forum does not conform to stereotype of 'thick scousers'. The news and current affairs section has a policy where all news sources must be quoted or posts will be deleted. The policy has been in effect since 2006, with amendments in Jan 2016. Why do you think that a Liverpool Football Club Fan forum would have a policy which in 2017 looks pretty damn ahead of its time??? Hmm Shall we have a think about how this is all connected together for a second?).

As for the DUP Leave money. I wonder if they will get a nice big donation come the next GE too. That sounds remarkably dodgy. Especially the implications for the Good Friday Agreement. Who do we think are the likely suspects? Its amazing how good people are at finding these dodgy loopholes and exploiting them isn't it?

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woman12345 · 15/02/2017 22:16

red the " silent thread to pay my respects to the 96, I have no words" on the Liverpool FC forum is one of the most moving things I've seen in years.
Kudos to their dignity, it honours the 96. Dignity transcends this stuff.

mathanxiety · 15/02/2017 22:36

Doesn't it though, Woman...

There are so many little tributaries running into the river at the moment.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/02/2017 22:40

Thanks, Maths I'd been thinking of the Monday Club as the Tory pressure group I remembered from the 1970s: the rightwing of the party, but respectable fuddy-duddies.
Clearly they've been transformed in a grim way.

NI Loyalist links to Britain First
Remember Jo Cox's murderer and Britain First

BF founder was Jim Dowson, a hardline evangelical anti-abortion activist with close ties to Loyalist paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland.
He's a former BNP fundraiser who was "arrested for organising several illegal parades in Northern Ireland which culminated in a series of violent clashes on the streets of Belfast"
The other main figure is Paul Golding, a former BNP councillor

BF has a paramilitary wing, similar structure & emblems to Loyalist paramlitaries
"Driving in military Land Rovers and wearing paramilitary-style uniforms, the group have staged a series of mosque invasions across the country"

"It encouraged English supporters, in the absence of a Britain First candidate, to instead vote for the English Democrats or UKIP, while warning against voting for the BNP."
So, they prefer UKIP to the BNP Hmm

"Britain First have threatened a campaign of "direct action" against any journalists reporting on the group"

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/06/19/britain-first-the-violent-new-face-of-british-fascism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_First

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 22:42

Just a thought for you. If Trump is being investigated, and there was talk of impeaching him, when would you try and do it if you were Congress. Would you perhaps pick a time to make the announcement when he was weakest? Say like when he was out of the country....

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Kaija · 15/02/2017 23:27

"Why do you think that a Liverpool Football Club Fan forum would have a policy which in 2017 looks pretty damn ahead of its time???

Shall we have a think about how this is all connected together for a second?)."

I don't know the answer to this and haven't seen the forum - what are your suspicions?

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 23:30

skwawkbox.org/2017/02/15/exclusive-farage-points-at-nuttall-fraud-and-nuttall-points-too-stokecentral-hillsborough/
Exclusive: #Farage points at #Nuttall fraud and Nuttall points too #StokeCentral #Hillsborough

Skwawkbox alert. However, I think this story might appear elsewhere soon.

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prettybird · 15/02/2017 23:33

I think the answer, without having looked at the forum) is that their experience of Sun lies "journalism" made the people of Liverpool (and contributors to this forum) highly suspicious of journalists and their "sources" and wary of "false news". Hence wanting making it a requirement to see where news originated.

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 23:35

Incidentally, Banks comments the other night might also be aimed partly at taking out Nuttall. Farage isn't happy with him. And if there is this EU report maybe they need a fall guy.

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mathanxiety · 15/02/2017 23:37

Impeachment is a political act and requires a good deal of ill will towards a president along with loss of allies in order for it to happen.

It may well come to a case of Trump's tax returns being leaked before the GOP turns on him. If that were to happen and if they showed enormous conflicts of interest, they might have no choice, even with poor timing. Or failing that, it may well happen that Trump will prove to be a huge liability to the GOP at the 2018 midterms.

Right now, the GOP is rubbing its grubby little hands together at the thought of achieving its refashioning of the USA - www.thenation.com/article/this-is-how-the-republican-party-plans-to-destroy-the-federal-government/. Gerrymandering and suppression of voters will be essential if the 2018 elections are not to result in a rout of the GOP when the white working class realises it is as screwed under Trump as it ever was.

If I were the Democratic Party I would be doing everything in my power to find those tax returns. I would not wait until 2018.

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 23:45

what prettybird said ^

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Kaija · 15/02/2017 23:55

Ah I see, yes.

Kaija · 15/02/2017 23:55

Cartoon in the New York Times

woman12345 · 16/02/2017 07:26

NI Loyalist links to Britain First
yikes, BCF
It's the hatred that dare not speak its name, but visiting friend on Catholic housing estate in Liverpool and living in Glasgow(several decades ago), I was appalled and infuriated by the para military and threatening semiotics of Orange Lodge marches through peaceful communities. Horrible. Hope that these marches no longer take place?

Although I don't want to mistakenly mix up the sectarian and the political, just on a human level I found these marches are provocative and sinister. And even more noticeable is the peaceful dignity with which these marches are tolerated on the mainland and in NI. And btw all the fantastic work which has been done in many areas to build walls across communities, everywhere, is coming under threat.

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2017 08:39

Andrew Neil @afneil
Despite Mrs May saying Trump 100% behind NATO, Def Sec Mattis says US will "moderate" support unless allies speed up extra defence spending

What was that people were saying about how successful May's trip to the USA was and how she 'secured' NATO. Doesn't look like much has changed from where I'm sitting...

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woman12345 · 16/02/2017 08:47

Not sure if UK is 100% behind NATO:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/14/uk-dips-nato-target-2pc-national-defence-spending/

prettybird · 16/02/2017 09:10

Woman12345 - unfortunately they do still take place. Smaller than they used to be and with agreed routes to stop them being deliberately provocative but they still give me creeps. Sad

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2017 10:19

Looks like the Stoke Central by-election after 78 year old ladies, Paul Nuttalls of the UKIPs HouseGate and Hillsborough and the Labour candidate's twitter just hit a new low in the gutter.

The lib Dems are asking for labour to condemn illegal texts sent to Muslims...

www.libdemvoice.org/breaking-stoke-on-trent-lib-dems-challenge-labour-to-condemn-offensive-and-illegal-texts-53320.html#utm_source=tweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter
Breaking: Stoke on Trent Lib Dems challenge Labour to condemn “offensive and illegal texts”

We have a week to go.

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RedToothBrush · 16/02/2017 10:23

Story seems to have been reported by the sun first
www.thesun.co.uk/news/2874633/stoke-centrals-muslim-voters-warned-they-will-go-to-hell-if-they-do-not-vote-labour-in-anti-ukip-text/

It's an act that could lead to a party being disqualified...

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