Was Brexit Just Populism

[RBeer]

Is that what is was? Take away the mantras and slogans.

Was the UK caught up in this Populism wave and just by mere coincidence did it happen to cross the Ref.

It could have crossed paths with any other arc.

The US Populism crossed with Trump and insofar that is very damaging, it's not fatal.

Brexit , however, is for ever.

The problem is that until this referendum very few people really cared about how the EU worked and that it actually needed change. Hence the position we are in. Yes, there always have been Eurosceptics, but not so vocal that it was a topic on everybody's minds.

Yes, indeed, there was always some chuntering about it. This didn't stop Harold Wilson getting a stonking majority to confirm that we should stay in. Then most people forgot about it, and moved on to grumbling about something else. Maggie Thatcher was a prime target for grumbles in certain parts of the country, especially with the Poll Tax. Never a mention of the EU. Yet apparently, it was the one issue which has dominated our thoughts. No, it wasn't.

No people did care but saw time after time it seemed change from within washing not possible.... If you saw the documentary recently, you will see a key figure in the eu calling for closer union, calling for an eu army. He says of course we canonot respond to the many issues we have we already not close enough. For many, that is not acceptable solution.

Washing!! Was not possible

It will be Leave voters apologising in 2 years when the economic effects start to become clear. Well it will take longer than that for them to realise they were had, but the more intelligent will start to see their mistake then. We're looking at at least 10 years of economic downturn and maybe more. If we go the tax haven route there will be a quite devastating social impact - less regulation and social protection. So there will be quite a lot of apologising to do.

I don't think Brexit was a way of demanding change from our own government. It was due to people wanting to leave the EU, for a variety of reasons. Some voters were populist, many were not. In many ways the "remain" side is populist itself.

Harold Wilson's referendum got a "remain" vote but only after the (sound familiar?) government propaganda which people were more likely to obey back then.

I think it would have been better to effect change from within.

But how? Cameron's attempts at a "reformed EU" were in vain. It seems the EU has had plenty of time to reform, yet it still has no intention of deviating from the plans it has held for decades. Any sudden comments from EU officials along the lines of "oh look, we need to change" are too little, too late. Of course they'd make statements like that if they're hoping the UK will change its mind, so I'm very sceptical about them.

In the 70s with joining what was supposed to just be a common market, and even with the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties (for which there was no referendum) most people had no idea of the true direction of the EU. They were just suddenly "EU citizens" (and now it's clear that the "citizenship", passports, currency, parliament, court, president, anthem, flag etc. may be "softeners" as the EU creeps into being a superstate) and that was that. It's only in hindsight that many more people have realised the EU as it now stands is something they never wanted.

It will be Leave voters apologising in 2 years when the economic effects start to become clear.

It seems to be the remain side who have often put money at the top of their priority list, and don't understand that sovereignty will always be more important to leave voters. Even the government's self-selected experts, their "stronger, safer, better off" mantra, and Osborne with his "emergency budget" etc. was not enough.

But funnily enough, you never lost sovereignty - even Theresa May admits that. It just felt as though you did.

And as even May's white paper confirmed, there was never a loss of sovereignty, only the "feeling" of sovereignty. So we had better hope that those feelings of restored sovereignty hold up through the coming years of economic deprivation, and don't instead find new targets to lash out at.

It will be Leave voters apologising in 2 years when the economic effects start to become clear.

No they won't. They'll just blame the EU for not giving us everything we want even if that's damaging to them or the WTO for having rules and not letting us be in charge, or TM and India for doing a deal that allowed more immigration from India or the Irish for being unhappy about boarder control. Whatever disaster befalls us it won't be Brexit fault and their fault for voting for it just like any problems we've had over the last 30 years it's all been because of the EU (in fairness, they have been fed this line non stop by vested interests) never our own governments fault.

It seems to be the remain side who have often put money at the top of their priority list, and don't understand that sovereignty will always be more important to leave voters

Ah yes the sovereignty that was never lost.

Conflating economics and materialism is disingenuous - unless of course you genuinely don't understand the difference.

In economic downturn the people who suffer the most are the poorest, the oldest, the youngest, the sick, disabled and the otherwise vulnerable. There will be inflation, a fall in living standards, rise in unemployment. All this brings suffering. Public services will be cut, public spending including benefits, schools, NHS, transport etc.

I do not want to see an increase in suffering in this country, and that is why I oppose a vote that many people have no idea of the economic consequences of.

If we go the tax haven route - we will see lower regulation - i.e. less employment rights, lower social protection - i.e. harder meaner benefits, and low tax.

It will be the end of the NHS as we know it. And all those people who voted for 'sovereignty', perhaps even believing the NHS would benefit, will be responsible for its demise.

I do not want to see an increase in suffering in this country, and that is why I oppose a vote that many people have no idea of the economic consequences of.

It works both ways. Remainers don't have a crystal ball either, and have no idea what the economic (or any other) situation of the EU will be. Brexit supporters voted to leave the proven-unreformable bloc, because on balance they believe it is best for Britain to be in charge of its own opportunities, economy and future.

The EU is full of ideology, but in reality it is not some kind of utopia where suffering never happens or could never increase. Indeed it's entirely possible that Britain might have prospered far more successfully had we never joined. The EU contains plenty of greed, corruption, stealth and lies, and has more than enough capacity to cause negative outcomes and fail economically.

Above it is argued that sovereignty "was not lost". Perhaps not in its entirety, not quite yet. But anyone without their head in the sand recognises there are ever-growing calls in the EU to fulfil its long-held plans for total political integration into a superstate. That would be the completion of what has always been a creeping takeover of the various aspects of sovereignty of member states. There are now very few alterations left in order to make that happen. The groundwork is nearly all there, and IMO we're getting out just in time.

This makes for an interesting read following Brexit and Trump.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds