Was Brexit Just Populism

[RBeer]

Is that what is was? Take away the mantras and slogans.

Was the UK caught up in this Populism wave and just by mere coincidence did it happen to cross the Ref.

It could have crossed paths with any other arc.

The US Populism crossed with Trump and insofar that is very damaging, it's not fatal.

Brexit , however, is for ever.

Scary and Baby B agree with all your excellent posts.

Esp the definition of madness.

None of the EU project inspires any confidence and in that excellent documentary that has been linked all over - people kept saying " we are waiting for help/guidance/response" and there is none to offer. They have shiny new buildings and lots of talks but what do they actually do? There is no function.
Yes looking at greece and other countries played a part in my vote because I dont see the project as a success in anyway. I see it doing more harm than good.

So how do you see Brexit improving the situation?

All 'populism' is is the will of the people. All democracies aim for this.

The Archbishop of Canterbury seems to think that populism, Brexit and Trump are linked, and more worryingly also connected to nationalism and fascism.

Text below from Breitbart.com (also reported in the Independent and Guardian)

Presenting his Presidential Address to the Church of England General Synod in London on Monday, the archbishop, Justin Welby, told members:

“There are a thousand ways to explain the Brexit vote, or the election of President Trump, or the strength in the polls in Holland of Geert Wilders or in France of Madame Le Pen and many other leaders in a nationalist, populist, or even fascist tradition of politics.”

That really annoyed my Mum Stripey, as she voted leave, having voted to go into the EEC initially. She also spends a lot of her time doing stuff for the church, including tithing 10% of her pension, and being told she was potentially a fascist (born in 1940), upset her no end.

carol, could you expand on your last post please?

I'm interested particularly in the quote marks round the word populism. And what do you mean by 'All democracies aim for this'?

Mother No it wasn't populism, any more than you would have termed it populism had the vote been to stay in. I think politics is cyclical, and the lean to the left is being corrected with a move to the right. I also think that things are of their time, and that as the EU (or rather, the Commission) thinks any suggestion of meaningful reform counts as heresy, the whole project is rapidly reaching the end of its time.

In the Katya Adler documentary, a couple of things that struck me were the surreal floor 5.5 in the EP building when she was trying to find Verhofstadt; and when she interviewed Mogherini and pointed out that sanctions weren't used when rules were broken, Mogherini couldn't really answer the point. I found the shots in Sicily devastating, and the interview with the French worker in the Nord Pas de Calais upsetting as well. There is no recognition by those in the Brussels bubble that the little people are being hurt by their policies, or they are as always, in the ostrich position.

It is populism in the sense that people are discovering a conscience about little people being hurt by politicians whereas they usually don't care about people in need: British People voted for austerity, so where is their concern for the needy and the weak when it's not whipped up by the right-wing press? It's inexistent. If it wasn't usually inexistent we would have a left wing Labour Party in power at least some of the time.

In addition to which the 'little people' of the North of France don't view the restriction on their potential ability for upping sticks and go and live abroad as a wonderful opportunity. And they are probably not too mad about ending up living in a low-tax unregulated country out of the EU.

And the North of France has been poor for as long as I remember, so nothing to do with 'Brussels'.

Fawful What was the alternative to voting for 'austerity'? I think if you want to talk about austerity you need to look at Greece and the RoI, as opposed to the version of austerity light we had in the UK.

No-one is being restricted in the UK if they want to live abroad. They have to have sufficient funds in place to do it though, and some countries make you prove that you can do so; and will kick you out as soon as they can if you lose your job.

As for poverty in N France being nothing to do with Brussels. The ECSC was formed in 51 and the EEC has been going since 67 til Maastricht, when it morphed into the EC, and then the current incarnation of the EU with Lisbon. One would have hoped that in the 66 years that France has been part of a common market, something would have helped that region.

I think politics is cyclical, and the lean to the left is being corrected with a move to the right. I also think that things are of their time, and that as the EU (or rather, the Commission) thinks any suggestion of meaningful reform counts as heresy, the whole project is rapidly reaching the end of its time

Agree with this.

I think those in power in the EU are enjoying their power and as for the problems in the EU I do believe they feel this is long term project whose final aim is higher and more worthy of some collateral damage now.

Since when has anti establishment thinking been populism? To accept the establishment position smacks of being brain washed and unable to think critically to me. The establishment is not always right, and needs to be challenged. If you don't change and all that. The establishment position was that until 1968 and the Abortion Act, abortion should be illegal. Was that right as it was the establishment position, or was it 'populism' to challenge that?

Yes, N France is to do with the French govt, but as the French establishment has been part of the project since its naissance, and indeed, proposed the ECSC in the first place, then I would hazard a guess that it is all intertwined.

I don't actually blame Brussels for all the ills in all the member states by any means, but I do think the EC is guilty of not listening to the concerns of member states, i.e. Greece and Hungary for example, and the UK via DC when he told them what would happen if they didn't agree to meaningful reform. The difference between leave and remain, is that remain seem fairly blinkered to the faults of the EU and see it as the answer to everything, whereas leave can see where the faults are and what could be done to fix them to make the EU workable, or at least more palatable (stopping the Strasbourg shuffle par example).

I think politics is cyclical, and the lean to the left is being corrected with a move to the right.

While true to a certain extent*, this sheds no light on the involvement of populism in Brexit.

Populism can be applied on either side of the political spectrum. In Brexit's case populism was co-opted on the right. In the US & South Americas it's generally associated with the left, in Europe with the right and Fascism. It generally pitches the people against the 'elite'. And then creates its own elite from the people. Scapegoating (in this case of the EU and immigrants) is also fairly typical.

The OP asked if Brexit was just populism. I put it in quotes in my previous post as no-one appears to know what it means.
It is used a lot, mainly by Remainers and Trump haters, to mean a mass of unthinking brainwashed dolts led by an evil power (Trump/Farage/the 'right-wing'press) to vote against the 'correct' thing in the face of the 'known facts' obvious to 'right-thinking' people.
Populism actually means (according to Chambers), a political or social programme appealing to the mass of the people. All democracies aim for this, as it means the voters are, in the majority, supportive of the government. If they are not, then the govt loses the next election.

Another definition of the word is 'a type of politics that claims to represent the opinions and wishes of ordinary people'; claims to being the operative phrase.

'ordinary people', pitting these 'ordinary people' against 'experts' (said in a sneering way), the 'elite', 'common sense' and of course Nigel Farage being 'a man of the people' and Brexit being 'the will of the people' are all phrases that have been used heavily in the months preceding and since the referendum vote.

Textbook populism.

There's the dictionary defintion of populism Carol, which sounds quite innoccuous, and there are the academic definitions applied to history.

There's no reason why populism couldn't be applied to positive policies as a force for the good. But generally in a historical context, particularly within Europe, it's has been co-opted by regimes that are not simply populist - as in for the common man - but specifically anti-elite, anti-intellectual, anti-democracy, anti-human rights, anti-dissent.

It can become a rush to the bottom to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

In those cases the politicians who appear to espouse populist policies don't actually care about the common man at all, but simply use them as a way to get to power. Once in power they run the country to suit themselves. Trump is a case in point. So is Hitler. So is Berlusconi.

innoccuous

innocuous

I've said this before on here but I don't believe the population hate the EU or immigrants any more than the Germans hated the Nazis.

Populism often has its conspiracy of the powers or the people who are disadvantaging the population, which the government claims it will rectify.

I think you have your head in the sand Mother, or you are wearing blinkers. The EU, in whatever incarnation it was in, pre or post Maastricht, and post Lisbon, was blamed for lots of things. I've been hearing it since the 80s, so well before the 2016 referendum.

Don't worry, I will continue to tell you that you are mistaken, and I am sure you will return the favour!

There's always been xenophobia in the UK, people have been whining about the EEC/EU since we joined.

But Mother is right that the more rabid, obsessive anti-EU hatred is relatively recent.

The hard right politicians and media discovered how easy it was to stoke existing xenophobia for their own ends. Combined with the genuine injustice of austerity, it was quite easy to convince naive and uneducated that the EU is the source of their woes.

Populism, as used on this thread:

It is used a lot, mainly by Remainers and Trump haters, to mean a mass of unthinking brainwashed dolts led by an evil power (Trump/Farage/the 'right-wing'press) to vote against the 'correct' thing in the face of the 'known facts' obvious to 'right-thinking' people.

The remain campaign lied about the economic impact and had no positive reason to remain, only negative lies.

Will you all apologise in 2 years when the economy is doing well, again after 5, after 10?