Thread for Remainers about EU

[Samosajosa]

The general view is that a vote to remain was a vote for the status quo. But there are rumblings - German and Italian banks potentially bringing about a financial crisis, Hollandes writings, tumbling economic prospects, huge unemployment levels, reported high numbers of google searches in Europe about the threat of civil war - that have the potential to cause the EU to implode. How did Remain voters evaluate that posdibility and conclude that there was no risk in remaining bound to a potentially sinking union?

Ok. So, I've listened to you all and I can gather from the disdainful tone that I am regarded as uninformed; that is as may be but can I ask to be humoured for just a bit longer? I cannot dissuade myself - fully - that the EU Is as healthy as indicated so I ask: if there was a banking crisis that led to the collapse of the euro and the rise of the far right, causiing havoc in the EU....what if this meant that they (parts of) could not afford to trade with us?

If there's a banking crisis that leads to the collapse of the euro that cannot be mitigated by the financial rules put in place after 2008 we are fucked, as are America and probably most of the other major economies. If the euro collapsed badly but didn't take the pound /dollar/everything else with it then that's a different matter, but eu membership doesn't change that. You are conflating the membership of the eu with membership of the eurozone.

Oh and as for the rise of the far right, it's happening here. There is a view in Europe that we've gone too far to the right and are fairly toxic.

I was going to add exactly that! UK is the cheerleader of the European far right, with Farage at the helm. I find it strange that you are concerned about a hypothetical collapse of the euro as the reason for the far right to rise...

I didn't say the collapse of the euro would cause the rise of far right parties in Europe. They are already around. So anyway, heard all your views and I guess it's just a waiting game.

I I'm intrigued to know why you're worried about a rise if the far right, largely only mentioned in our press and not what most Europeans are actually seeing, within Europe when it's happening here now (not to mention America).

I don't think anyone has been disdainful of you op.

If there were a banking collapse and a collapse of the euro the it would take every other globally integrated financial economy with it.

Guess where is the centre of global finance? Guess where the largest forex market for euros is?

As for the far right? There are parties in Europe yes, but we've just had a vote that was based on a lot of nationalistic (note not patriotic) and xenophobic rhetoric, and a government party conference which pander to those prejudices with some zeal.

I don't think that pointing out other countries have a growing influence of the far right is fair, theY have had far more influence here.

Perhaps populist/nationalist...but there is a move to the right in Europe.

Samosa no disdain intended.

Without going into how many ways the interpretation of that data can be flawed, not least because in most cases it's showing a more ebb and flow rather than a swing or rise. It doesn't explain why you fear the raise of right wing within European countries when it is happening to our own. Or even why a swing towards the right within the eu is worse than a swing the the right here.

op do you believe that the rhetoric on display at the Tory conference was anything other that xenophobic right wing?

Jaws yes it was an (unwise) lurch rightward but Unless that is her true colours I have no idea why she thinks it has to be that way. Half of her MPs looked uncomfortable. As I said before I just don't get...pardon the pun.....the politics of it all. If she'd made her mind up to pursue brexit why go to extremes and risk alienating many many moderates? Or if it's all posture, why risk alienating EU guys?

Mag. Maybe because I am a Jew and in Europe?

But that doesn't explain why you'd think Britain was better getting away from the eu when brexit is leading us down a far right path and makes the European far right feel more legitimised. It makes more sense if you're worried about us spurring the rest of Europe on for the eu to get rid of us.

I didn't connect leaving EU with rise of right wing domestic politics as these were not , in my opinion, so evident before the vote; in fact I thought that UKIP would fade away once the move to leave began. I didn't expect what we are seeing now. In my reasoning my focus was entirely on the economic effects of Uk being dragged down by implosion of EU - if EU were no longer able to trade with us.

Anyway, thanks all. A reasonably successful discussion I think without resorting to insults

I'm fairly astounded that it's a shock that Britain would not go more far right in the event of a brexit vote often campaigned on at best xenophobic messages.

In the unlikely event the eu implodes then the world has an issue, not just an in or out Britain. It's not in the worlds interest to allow that to happen.

^its a shock that Britain would go more right wing, even.

I think your op is a bit goady but I will answer your question because I am fed up of seeing threads where leavers have been asked to explain their reasons to help those of us who voted remain understand and I have yet to see any real responses. I hope this will precipitate a fair exchange of opinions.

I voted remain. Like pretty much everyone on this thread I know there are huge issues with the EU as it is and that change /reform is needed.

However, it was an easy decision. Like people have said before me in or out we will be affected by the euro zone and if we are in we have some chance of influencing that change out we have none.

Good things about membership:
Benefit to the economy, more power to negotiate better deals as a trading block than out (maybe it takes more time as there are a lot of countries to agree but it needs to be fair to all and I am thinking long term for my children's future).

The environment (already the impact of the damage we are doing is showing I am terrified about what I am leaving behind for my children, the EU have been a positive force for change here).

Freedom of movement (we live in the EU, yes I am sure people with the right qualifications will still be able to go however without FOM spouses are left with no right to work / continue their own carers etc I see this all the time where I live as there are a number of families from the US).

My children. Why would I vote to limit their future opportunities?

EU funding for science, education and regeneration ( I used to work in regeneration - the eu don't sit in a room somewhere saying ah town x is deprived we should build a sports centre! Local government and charities apply to the EU for funding to spend in their areas, they create the project and bid for the money. if people have a problem with where money is going then the problem lies much closer to home).

Finally rise of the right wing: I am not sure why people think that the right wing in Europe is any different to the right wing in the UK? The union jack has become a symbol of right wing facism in Europe since the referendum. The right wing is on the side of the brexiteers. We are heroes to the right wing - not something to feel proud of. In contrast my little french village ran an international festival just last week to celebrate our international community. You can learn 4 different languages for €40 for the year at my village hall. Classes run by volunteers who came here like me as economic migrants and have been made to feel welcome and valued. Not quite the image projected by the DM and DE I think.

Sorry for the essay, this is as short as I could get it.

"why was such a great club, with so many positives so easy to hate" Right wing media stirring up hatred.

Great post ChilliMum.

OP, I do feel bound to a sinking union, but it's not the EU.

Because I'm very sad here i have recreated the ny times graphs for the uk. Both in terms of seats won and vote percentage. I think these perfectly illustrate that we're a massive right wing threat within Europe (if the other graphs are meant to show that at all).

if there was a banking crisis that led to the collapse of the euro and the rise of the far right, causiing havoc in the EU....what if this meant that they (parts of) could not afford to trade with us?

This would be bad for the UK economy - but crucially, it would be bad whether we are inside the EU or outside of it. As I said previously, the EU will inevitably remain a major trading partner, or the UK is in deep, deep trouble (go and read up about gravity theories of trade and you will understand why).

The upshot is that a meltdown in the Eurozone would be damaging for the UK whatever its future relationship with the EU. As has been pointed out frequently by leavers, leaving the EU does not mean leaving Europe. Unless the UK opts for extreme isolationism (which would be hugely damaging), then what happens in Europe will continue to affect us.

Because Pandora's box has been opened now: It's either the end of the Tory party if they admit this is crazy or the country's economic ruin if they go ahead. Express readers still believe the lies and riots and violence are possible - as Farage advised and hopes. Yesterday's Express was a worrying incitement to violence. Fox and Davis are deluded and actually believe their own lies now, they're fanatics but when it all goes tits up they'll be fine with their millions. Johnson is described by insiders as someone who only tells the truth "by accident". Still cannot work out if May is a zealot and not too bright, or knows that the only way out I this is a car crash that will turn public opinion against Brexit. As we saw yesterday, most MPs do think this is suicidal and are trying to minimise impact.

I have heard that there is a term in psychology for this sort of thinking. Basically, you made a massive cock-up, everybody can see what a massive cock-up it was but because you were such a cheer leader for it, you keep cheer leading - 'it'll all be great in the end, nothings going wrong' despite all the evidence that we're fucked. People feel unable to admit they made a mistake, this leads to worse outcomes in the end as they carry on and jump off the cliff when they could have changed direction at the last minute. The country is going to jump off that cliff because people don't want to look foolish.

I wish I could remember the name for this pattern of thinking in psychology, don't really even know what to type into google to find it.

I was reluctant to add to this thread because I felt the opening post was a bit of a trick question/ false dichotomy, but would echo what others have replied so far.

Being in many regards a metropolitan "citizen of the world" type, I was already positively inclined toward the ideals of the EU; however I do not believe the EU is perfect, nor that remaining would be a risk-free continuance of the status quo. In fact, I felt the issue was too complex for me to fully understand and so I looked at both sides of the campaign and (importantly) what economic and political experts had to say.