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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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Peregrina · 02/10/2016 22:47

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

I don't know if this has been posted. Ian Dunt, who to me, seems quite perceptive, offers the opinion: In years to come, this will be seen as one of the most disastrous speeches ever made by a prime minister. Not only did she propose a goal which will devastate the British economy, she also gave away her own meagre leverage in securing it.

jaws5 · 02/10/2016 22:49

So angry and disappointed with Labour! We're feeling abandoned, really , I speak for me, my partner and many British and EU friends too, and after many conversations

mathanxiety · 02/10/2016 22:50

I have to agree with that comment by Dunt.

And I love that tweet by Nicola Sturgeon.

jaws5 · 02/10/2016 22:51

Yes peregrina, good analysis, I personally couldn't handle it and switched the tv off!

Motheroffourdragons · 02/10/2016 23:05

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lalalonglegs · 02/10/2016 23:11

Your Libdem MP won't vote against Brexit, Kaija Shock? Dear God, it's all in the hands of the House of Lords, then.

mathanxiety · 02/10/2016 23:18

(And all the rest of his article).

mathanxiety · 02/10/2016 23:19

Sorry to post like this, but 'sabotaging' Ireland is exactly what is afoot, along with all the other batshit crazy turns this is taking.

Kaija · 02/10/2016 23:30

Fraid so Lala - will of the people apparently.

Peregrina · 02/10/2016 23:32

but 'sabotaging' Ireland is exactly what is afoot

I imagine that quite a lot of English MPs would be happy to see N Ireland join the Republic of Ireland, in so far as they even bother to give it a moment's thought.

Kaija · 02/10/2016 23:32

Clearly 48% of the population are non-people since 23rd June. (63% if you count those that didn't make it to the polling station.)

TheBathroomSink · 03/10/2016 00:17

The whole referendum plan is not working out great for a few governments, it seems.

Hungary only managed a 43% turnout, so even though it was almost unanimous in favour, it doesn't meet the threshold of 50% turnout according to the BBC. The president is still claiming it as a victory though.

Colombia negotiated a peace deal with the FARC rebels which would have put an end to 52 years of trouble, and the Colombian people have just rejected it by about 63000 votes out of 13 million, throwing the whole deal, which took 4 years to get, in chaos.

And us, in our new guise as FUKD.

whogrewoutoftheterribletwos · 03/10/2016 00:22

Just read this thread. Thank you all

kaija - yes, the repeated line that the 'overwhelming majority' voted to leave is rather puzzling. But then facts, figures and reality haven't really been that important in the whole Brexit debacle

For those asking about Scotland: the Scottish Parliament had the power to legislate for Scotland, except in reserved matters, but the Scotland Act 1998 states that this does not affect the power of the WM parliament to legislate for Scotland on anything it likes. However, the Sewell convention (now s2 of the Scotland Act 2016) says that WM will not normally use this power without consent from Holyrood. Thing is, this situation is anything but 'normal' so they don't have to bother getting that consent. Consent is done through civil service documents called legislative consent motions, a practice that became the normal after devolution. There is some debate as to whether the acts of union would be relevant - technically they were passed by the old English and Scottish parliaments, which ceased to exist after 1707. Though they formed the basis for the UK (pre-NI), because parliament is 'sovereign' they don't bind it. Bear in mind that parliament cannot permanently bind itself either

One last thing - the new Scotland Act also enshrines the SP as a permanent part of the UK Constitutional arrangement that cannot be abolished without a majority result from a referendum of the Scottish people. But as that's a WM Act, it can really do whatever it wants

prettybird · 03/10/2016 00:57

I know this is written very much from a pro Scottish Wink I dorm fence perspective, but I thought that the Westministenders would appreciate it....

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/10/02/its-time-to-grasp-the-thistle/

HesterThrale · 03/10/2016 05:44

Prettybird, the weegingerdug makes a lot of sense. I'd feel like that too if I lived in Scotland. Bitter enough to go for independence again.

Those of us who live in England don't even have that potential escape avenue.

twofingerstoGideon · 03/10/2016 07:17

To those who are talking about needing a proper movement: a similar debate is going on on the Facebook page The 48% (closed group, but you can ask to join). They've also recognised that remainers now need to join together and are also talking about needing a spokesperson to put forward the case for remain.
Could people join The 48% group and share ideas?

Motheroffourdragons · 03/10/2016 07:20

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prettybird · 03/10/2016 08:02

It was late when I posted it so I missed the autocorrect from "Independence" to "I dorm fence" Confused

At least from the context, it should have been obvious Blush

The Wee Ginger Dug is an intelligent pro-independence voice - not a member of the SNP (or any party).

Peregrina · 03/10/2016 09:48

Tories on the brink of warfare

Over Brexit. TM seems to think that 16 million people have gone away. This is the 16 million who are on the whole better educated and younger, so are more likely not to go away IMO.

I joined the 48% facebook group a few weeks ago, and it's been something of a lifeline.

The £ declined again today - I hope the Leavers are happy with this.

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2016 09:50

And I'm sorry to say my LibDem MP told me he would not vote against article 50 if it came to it.

It is worth pointing out that they might not be asked to vote on a50. It might be something related to a50. And voting for a50 might not be that simple either. I agree that ultimately even Lib Dems MPs will have to say they will vote for it - due to the referendum and democracy and their duty to represent the will of the people. But and there is a big important BUT here - this depends on the proper and appropriate strings being attached - they also have a duty to act in the best interests of the people they represent. This makes it a very different prospect to a royal prerog a50, and also may ultimately just get stuck in the commons/lords for a while which also changes the game.

I feel for MPs. I think they need to fight and not take it lying down, at least at first attempt, and on the grounds that it has to be in the national interest as well as down to the will of the people.

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Peregrina · 03/10/2016 10:06

£ down

If Brexit is So Wonderful, why isn't it up against all these currencies?

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2016 10:50

Twitter this morning is full of intriguing comments:

Tangent @Tangent3
@OliverKamm A lot of Brexiteers are mercantilists labouring under the impression that they are Free Traders.

If like me you have NFI what a mercantilist is:
^Mercantilism was an economic theory and practice, dominant in modernized parts of Europe during the 16th to the 18th century, that promoted governmental regulation of a nation's economy for the purpose of augmenting state power at the expense of rival national powers. It was the economic counterpart of the previous medieval version of political power; divine right of kings and absolute monarchy. Mercantilism includes a national economic policy aimed at accumulating monetary reserves through a positive balance of trade, especially of finished goods. Historically, such policies frequently led to war and also motivated colonial expansion. Mercantilist theory varies in sophistication from one writer to another and has evolved over time.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism

Indeed this is a quote from Liam Fox in his fat lazy golfer speech:
www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/british-business-too-fat-and-lazy-cabinet-minister-liam-fox-claims-in-extraordinary-attack-a3341586.html
"We have to start to think about (the world) in a totally different way" he told the reception.

"We've got to change the cartographer's view of the world to the mercantilist view of the world. The structures of government (have) to respond to where the opportunities arise and the size of markets"

This should set your alarm bells off. It was said before the referendum that the Leave campaign was about 'taking back control' but not for the people but because it was an undemocratic power grab. And you have senior Cabinet MPs seemingly saying things that reinforce this - whilst at the same time saying anyone challenging that is 'subverting democracy'. (I will also point out what is happening in Turkey and what Erdogan did to save himself, by saying democracy was under threat). May did dismiss Fox's speech as being private views but her subsequent words do make you wonder.

Mark Elliot - the constitutional academic who thinks the a50 defence is sound has another blog post today about the 'Great' Repeal Act.
publiclawforeveryone.com/2016/10/02/theresa-mays-great-repeal-bill-some-preliminary-thoughts/
A couple of quotes:
That, of course, wouldpile irony upon irony, as a Government determined to restore parliamentary sovereignty while giving Parliament no say over the triggering of Article 50 moved seamlessly into a vast accumulation of executive law-making powerthat would marginalise Parliament’s role in shaping the post-Brexit legislative landscape.
and
The overarching message that has emerged from thespeeches at the Conservative Party conference is that the Government is single-mindedly committed to an executive-led withdrawal process, and is unprepared to tolerate interference in that process by either Parliament or the devolved institutions. Of course, there is one institution — the UK Supreme Court — whose interference the Government may have to tolerate whether it likes it or not.

I really feel that these statements by May really would do little to help the government's defence of a50 as it is so such a ruthless attempt to subvert democracy and bypass parliamentary debate on such a huge issue. I just hope that Mark Elliot was wrong in one or both of his blogs as this is really worrying stuff regardless of your actual position of whether you are pro or anti Brexit.

Certainly this idea WAS one that was spoken about by 'Project Fear'. Most subsequent criticism of Project Fear has centred on economics - and the apparent lack of an economic hit - and told us to trust the Government. Yet here we have constitutional academics who SUPPORT the government's view of a50 defence also saying that there is something of a problem with concentration of power as a result of that.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/02/beware-brexit-three-blind-mice-nick-herbert
Nick Herbert MP says not to trust the Three Blind Mice.

At least there seem to be some Tories on the ball.

And its is becoming more obvious that the economic warnings of Project Fear have not gone away.

Joe Carberry ‏@joecarberryUK
So David Davis is relaxed about 75,000 City jobs going. All in the name of having our own food labelling.

Quote:
At a meeting with business leaders last week, the Brexit secretary was presented with analysis suggesting the scale of job losses under various scenarios, one of which suggested the 75,000 City jobs could be lost

Some of those present say that Mr Davis appeared underwhelmed by the work conducted by Oliver Wyman, a management consultancy, and suggested that the scale of the damage to the City in certain scenarios did not worry him. "He didn't seem fazed by this," a source said.

Worrying.

Then this about the EU.
www.cer.org.uk/insights/why-27-are-taking-hard-line-brexit
This is a very revealing article about why the 27 have (and will continue) to take a hard line on pre-negotiations.

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Motheroffourdragons · 03/10/2016 11:16

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RedToothBrush · 03/10/2016 11:35

John Lewis have a sense of humour.

Their Christmas Decorations this year have two sets:

One about the 'Grand Tour' with animals from all over the world.
One called 'Tourism' with lots of things with Union Jacks all over them.

But the best one of all is this

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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CousinCharlotte · 03/10/2016 12:25

Thanks, some great articles on this thread Smile

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