Question for Leave Voters Only

[lljkk]

(I know what Remainers will say :) ).

When do you want Article 50 to be invoked? What is latest acceptable date?
If any, what conditions must be met?

Thanks for explaining. I do not know why I am still up! I do get the divorce analogy but just like some divorces where a lot is at stake, it can take ages sorting out the settlement. More complicated if children are involved and one wants to 'leave' and live with daddy and the other wants to 'remain' in the house with mother

Maybe we should have had a prenup?

I do question if the EU does collapse how much of it would be precipitated by our vote. I certainly hope that this factor isn't conviently forgotten should that day ever arrive.

I need to get to bed!

just like some divorces where a lot is at stake, it can take ages sorting out the settlement.

A50 is only us giving notice of our intention to leave. We have two years after that to negotiate our exit.

I do question if the EU does collapse how much of it would be precipitated by our vote.

If us leaving (who on our own will be as insignificant as Jersey, remember) is all it takes to make the EU collapse, it's obviously not very solidly constructed in the first place.

To continue the divorce analogy, usual advice on MN is that a person shouldn't stay in a relationship where s/he is unhappy just because s/he doesn't want to break up the family.

Me too please. I'd really love a sensible conversation.

I disagree on your second point flavia. Ideas are powerful.

Thanks Bengal.

to me it seems like answers are mostly driven by what David Davis said, I suppose that's reasonable. Replies were:

within 3-6 yrs
once May and her team have a plan, and the legal bits are sorted constitutionally.
some time in 2017
by the beginning of 2017
early 2017
early 2017

Bengal

I have tried to PM you ... I may know something about the page. It's saying I can't send it though haha. MN have you on lockdown I'll try again later

Oh please pm me the FB group please I have given up posting the name calling shrieking nastiness is really quite pathetic. I posted on that thread Bengalbegire I realised I thought about reporting it as it became clear it was deliberately goady

So leave voters just want people who think like them to talk to.

As I've said about you all along, you don't make your decisions based on the available information, you all just seek confirmation bias.

I'm appalled that after the behaviour of the main leave supporters on here in the run up to and after the vote you now accuse others of shrieking and hectoring. I remember well all of the remain side being attacked, called Cameron's stooges, sheeple, anti British/un patriotic, unable to think for themselves.

What you don't like is that you have voted for something, and it will probably appear that nothing that you voted for will happen. EU lite is what we will get.

You don't want reasoned debate or to be challenged, what you want is to tell each other how great it is going to be.

So leave voters just want people who think like them to talk to.

That was pretty obvious from Day 1 with all the "You lost, shut up, get over it or leave the country!" stuff.

I'd would have liked A50 to have been evoked the day TM took over, showing that we are not messing about. We voted out, now let's crack on with it. We have 2 years to agree the details after that.

I'm not happy about it, but I can go along with the delay whilst the Brexit Team line their ducks up. I would prefer we did it by the end of this year, but TM has said it won't be - so, I guess as long as it's done by April it's vaguely acceptable to me.

Be 'appalled' all you like smallfix. Why would I care . Anyway, didn't you flounce a couple of weeks ago?

David Allen Green's pinned tweet:

ESTRAGON: Well, shall we Leave?
VLADIMIR: Yes, let's Leave.

(They do not send the Article 50 Notification.)

Which always makes me smile.

FT: Civil Servants will decide

to me it seems like answers are mostly driven by what David Davis said

No, David Davis agrees with me too
I don't think I read what he said until after I posted. I think it's just that early next year is the soonest it could realistically happen, and there's no benefit to anyone that I can see in delaying beyond that.

Greenwood, that FT article is behind a paywall. Can you summarise?

Do the leavers understand that the POLITICIANS HAVE NO FG IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON!

They are desperately trying to placate the brexiters, who are now saying please sort it out for us! The civil servants and lawyers are desperately trying to come up with some scenarios, they have no idea what the EU will agree to.

SHIT STORM are the words that come to mind. But it is all fine because you can go and chat to each other in your secret Facebook site! And after all it is all our fault for talking Britain down and if we all work together...

namehanger I hear your fear and anxiety. I still think that untangling ourselves from the federal EU dream is the right thing to do, but I acknowledge that you and millions of others still fervently believe that we shouldn't be embarking on that untangling. The emotions have flipped: Many of the leave voters felt out of control for years, on a path towards something for which they hadn't voted, which they didn't identify with (for good reasons or bad ones), anxious about where it was going, furious about being identified with it and its values, unheard by those in power. It might be worth really thinking about how long that's been for some people (Maastricht for some, Lisbon for others, maybe even longer in the EC years for some old gimmers), and by contrast how long the feeling of wrongness has been there for you since the referendum. That might help you to understand part of why some people voted leave (not me, I wasn't in fear and anxiety, I had different reasons) and also part of why the high emotions from the remain voters are being viewed a little impatiently by some leavers. They must be feeling "seriously? You didn't listen to us for 10/20/40 years and now we have to do everything humanly possible to reassure you instantly, because enough of us finally had the chance to express our desire not to be on that road?"

Great post Omm

Flavia, it's a very wordy, entertaining article.

It can be summed up in a couple of sentences:

Civil servants and Ministers have long been engaged in a 'silent power struggle' - think Yes, Prime Minister - described by Thatcher and others as most realistic. Civil servants basically make the nitty-gritty decisions and the Minister - who is only human and has only 24hrs in a day, ends up essentially "agreeing" with the decisions hammered our by his/her civil servants.

Senior Civil Servants are London based, highly educated people who are unlikely to be in favour of Brexit.

Exactly Omm well said.

You didn't listen to us for 10/20/40 years

Thank you for a thoughtfully worded post omm. Although I can't myself agree with the notion that being "controlled" by the EU is somehow equivalent to being launched willy-nilly into the unknown out of the EU, I am genuinely grateful that you at least have given some thought to this.

I also hope that Leave voters will not be expecting those of us who disagree to "STFU, get over it, stop whining, or leave the country" for, mmm, the next 10/20/40 years . It's only fair, right?

Well said, ommmward.

I suppose I'm an 'old gimmer', as I was (just) old enough to vote in the 1975 referendum. Many people who voted to Stay then did so with deep reservations.

People who have family or other emotional connections to their European identity today, that's how many people felt about the Commonwealth then. Apart from family and trade connections, the Commonwealth and Empire came to our aid (and that of Europe) without hesitation in both world wars. In 1975 there were many people who had strong and deep personal memories of that, and were saddened that, as they saw it, we were turning our backs on the Commonwealth and our longstanding Commonwealth trade.

Plus, we were told we were getting a Common Market. Not a European Union with a single currency and 'ever closer union'. We wouldn't have voted for that.

The CAP has been a contentious issue for decades.

I would have voted Leave in any referendum since the euro was introduced, possibly since Maastricht. I was looking to the Remain campaign to convince me to vote to stay. They didn't. If anything the Remain campaign strengthened my resolve, with its 'Little Englander' slurs and parade of luvvies. I'm an economic historian; how is an actor or footballer qualified to tell me how to vote?

I respect that some people have genuine and deeply held reasons for voting Remain, but there has also been some huge over-reaction. 'We won't be able to do xyz any more' when people were doing xyz perfectly well before freedom of movement, before we even joined the Common Market. I think the daftest thing I read, before I stopped reading, was someone saying her daughter wouldn't now be able to do a mfl degree. I mean wtf?

Finally, and I think this is what Boris has been trying to communicate, the EU is not synonymous with Europe. Europe as a region is far more diverse than that; the 'one size fits all' mentality is part of the problem. Withdrawing from the EU doesn't mean we stop appreciating, studying and participating in all the varied histories, languages, cultures, of the regions and countries of Europe.

You realise Boris didn't actually want to win the vote?

omm, the problem is, we won't actually be untangling ourselves from the EU to the extent those voters wanted.

The only Leave vote I've ever remotely understood was that based on the situation you quoted above, ie people who are genuinely unhappy at the Union and don't think we should be a part of it, however, removing ourselves completely was never an option.

Our affairs are inextricably linked and we still want too many of the benefits to forsake many of the negatives.

The other issue is, many Leave voters voted for a multitude of spurious reasons, most of which had very little to do with anything that might possibly change by leaving the EU.

It's the naivety of many Leave voters which frustrates the Remainers; yesterday there was a thread about a house sale falling through as the buyers said they didn't want to go ahead as they were concerned about Brexit- one reply said 'it can't be because of Brexit, the referendum was a month ago'

I have to say, that blew my mind.