Do people genuinely feel they are a 'European Citizen'? And why?

[mrsvilliers]

Genuinely interested and not having a dig at anybody. This has come up on my social media a lot recently and culminated today in DM informing me she had managed to dredge up an Irish relative from somewhere which meant she could apply for an Irish passport. When I asked her why she informed me she was a European citizen and want to remain one. Fair enough but I am genuinely baffled. I speak two European languages, have travelled, worked and lived extensively in Europe and would never refer to myself as a European citizen. European yes, in that I am not African or Asian or North/South American etc but not in reference to being a citizen. Honestly genuinely interested and can't ask on social media as would get flayed!!

I feel English first, European second, British third. I was a lot less concerned about the outcome of the Scottish Independence vote than the EU vote, because I thought Scotland would be part of the European family in any event.

And I am distressed and outraged that my European citizenship may be snatched from me. I agree with the PP who used the term 'visceral' in describing her feelings.

Mistigri yes some NI people do consider themselves British that's what all the problems were about!

The problem I suppose lies in that there is no way to describe a citizen of the UK, so if you have a UK passport you are British iykwim.

Thanks again for the comment, I would like to point out that in my OP I focused on the word 'citizen' rather than European. Obviously we are all European if born in the continent of Europe whether that country is in the EU or not

To me, I'm English because it's a geographical entity, a country. Britain is a political union. I have another potential nationality and I'm half that too but mainly English.

I'm from NI, so don't feel properly Irish and am not British. I live in England, but am not English. I have one French parent, a German aunt, and Italian stepmother, and my sister and niece live in Spain.

I have citizenship of three (for the time being) different countries in Europe.

European is the only "national" identity that I fit in with. The national ones don't cover me, but I do feel European.

I think the Northern Irish thing is probably the reason. I don't really have a country to belong to.

Genuine questioni for those who feel first and foremost European, if you took away he ability to work and live in a different area in Europe, what makes you feel European? I'd also ask how many of the people who feel first and foremost European are non-white.

I ask because my personal experience and that of my friends in different European countries is that when I am asked where I am from and I reply "the US", the response I always get is "No, where are you really from".

Additionally, having been brought up in a country comprised if many states, some with extremely strong identities, what made all of feel a citizen of the overarching country was a belief in specific institutions and an ability to have our say in the running of the overarching government whose will supersedes those of the individual states. It is what unites a Texan and a Pennsylvanian. Out of curiosity, what specifically makes you feel European (Living and working in another country does not count because that existed before and will exist after - perhaps not as easily, but still existed/will exist).

I guess I would say British to answer the question of asked, but have taken my European status for granted for years. My passport is european, my driving license has EU on it, I can travel easier around the EU. I can access some facilities such as medical care easier in the EU. If I wanted to I could go and move and live and work around the EU, as could my child as she grows up.

But soon to be no longer. I did take it for granted but I didn't want it to go. I voted to stay. I never realised how much I took it all for granted until a week ago when I felt gutted. Gutted for my child too - who is now having all that I took for granted removed and her opportunities feel more restricted in one big swoops.

And I didn't expect to feel the loss that I felt when the regendum results came out. It made me feel as though I had to choose between two identies which had never been in conflict before. I had been happy to be both British and European before, but was now being told that I couldn't be both and that in order to be part of my bigger Eurooean identity I had to reject my Britishness. So I did, because while Britsin is where I live and a place I love, and my children are fully British, I'm not. I've started feeling like a foreigner.

Genuine questioni for those who feel first and foremost European, if you took away he ability to work and live in a different area in Europe, what makes you feel European? I'd also ask how many of the people who feel first and foremost European are non-white.

I'm white, born in London but with Welsh, Scottish and English ancestors. As a child I felt mainly Welsh, funnily enough, despite growing up in London - my mum is from Wales as is the bit of our extended family we are closest to, and my childhood memories are dominated by the time I spent there.

As far as "feeling European" is concerned, others have already articulated their attachment to a set of post-war european values and I'd agree with that. It's also a default position - I don't feel British or French or Belgian or German (all places I've worked), so what am I?

Thank you for answering Misti. How is a post-was European value defined and do you see the Spanish view, Greek view, Latvian view, and the UK view being the same? Is the Canadian or US view very different?

I was born in Australia, travel on an EU passport & have lived in England for more time than any other country. I don't consider myself Australian and find some of their values very alien. I have always had a sense of "otherness" in England. I consider myself as an immigrant. As a EU citizen I had a place, roots and a common identity. I feel as if I have been cut adrift and am trying to rebuild an identity.

Mominatrix I could equally ask you how "Englishness" differs from "Welshness" or how being British differs from being French. In the latter case, the answer is that in many respects it doesn't: strong feelings of national identity are driven by exactly the same psychology worldwide. The worldview of a British UKIP voter has more in common with that of a French National Front voter than, say, a Labour voting Londoner.

In the same way, I certainly feel more in-tune with European political values which tend (at least in the "core", older European countries where I have spent enough time to make a judgement) to emphasise cooperation and social justice, than with British and American values which tend to emphasise a more laissez faire kind of capitalism.

It's interesting how many people on this thread who say they feel European also say they have lived/worked in another EU country, not sure if it's experiencing that which increases the European feeling, or those who feel European are more likely to seek out living in different parts of Europe/their "country". (Could it be that seeing yourself as having the same identity and culture as French/German/Italian etc people make it seem less daunting to consider moving there)

True, but the person who is a citizen of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all directly elect the person who represents them in the central government and thus have a direct say in that governing body - they all have a defined state.

I am sympathetic to the European project, but I have long thought it madness that it was not more centralised with more power. This wishy washy political contstuct which currently exists cannot continue. In order to truly build a European State, you must subsume national identity (not get rid of, but make politically much less important) and built a central collective identity. You must at least have a central economic policy, military policy, foreign policy. Every European citizen must feel like they have a state in the central government before their local one to strengthen the European identity. The technocrats who set up the EU did not have the stomach to do this and this has been a fundamental weakness of the institution.

It is interesting that you point out that British capitalism is very different from the rest of Europe - I think you are correct in this view. How could a central economic policy be made where one important view is very different from the vast majority? The thing about unity is that you can't cherry pick what you like and dislike - everyone must agree on a set of principals in order to get things accomplished.

Stake not state - I hate predictive text!!!!!!

I definitely feel European. I'm British (with no sniff of citizenship anywhere else, sadly) but I studied two modern languages at university, have since taken up a third and have lived and worked in several European countries. I feel more at home when visiting Europe than elsewhere - just seem to 'slot in' better - and feel that European values tally more closely with my own than, say, those of the USA or Australia.

That said, I'm surprised of my depth of feeling over the referendum result. It's as if part of my inherent identify has been snatched away and I'm still struggling to get my head round it.

I was discussing this with dh yesterday. Yes, we both feel European.
I feel this most strongly when I have been to the US - we may have a common (ish) language, but culturally widely held attitudes to gun laws, abortion, the death penalty, food, are alien on the whole.

I speak four other European languages to varying degrees, have lived in France, and feel bereft at the thought of Brexit.

True, but the person who is a citizen of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all directly elect the person who represents them in the central government and thus have a direct say in that governing body

Actually, they don't.

Parliament is a legislative body. Not governing.

People don't vote directly for any governing body and it's a weird system in the UK where people vote simultaneously for a personal representative to parliament, and indirectly for government.
People in government are chosen:
A) from parliament majority, which may not be an overall vote majority
B) by the Queen
C) by the chosen Prime Minister.

Oh, there is a non-elected body called House of Lords.

So, please tell how massively different or better this system is in relation to the EU.

And, btw:
A) People vote for national parliament member.
B) Parliament votes on Commission President (selected by majority political group)
C) Commission members are appointed by (chosen as above) each national government.

True, but the person who is a citizen of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all directly elect the person who represents them in the central government

Nope. Wrong on several counts. Members of the House of Lords can be government ministers. Many people elect representatives who never play a role in government (they are either opposition MPs or backbenchers). Should I assume that your knowledge of european institutions is equally non-existent?

In any case, we're talking about a sense of nationality here, which does not necessarily correlate with the individual's representation in political institutions. Scottish people felt Scottish before devolution...

In relation to the question, there is a difference between feeling European and an European Citizen.

I certainly don't feel Asian or American or African or Oceanian (? ).
Yes, my culture is European. And in that sense I felt at home living in the UK, more than when I've been in any other continent.
Feeling like a citizen has to do with exercising the rights and being in contact with the reality of a joint membership.

The decision of being part of the European Union is different, though. It should be more intelectual than emotional. Even of that decision ended up being that it's better for a country to be out.

PS- Mistigri

Misti, no need to be insulting and rude - it really detracts from your message, particularly when I have not made any insulting or derogatory statements. I stand by what I say that the citizen of the UK feels they have a direct link with central government and is more powerless in determining European policy.

Also, I agree that we are talking about nationality. I still stand by my statement that in order to cultivate a feeling of European nationality, you need a stronger central state.

I also agree that there is a difference between feeling European and a European citizen. A Swiss citizen certainly is European, but not a European citizen.

• I stand by what I say that the citizen of the UK feels they have a direct link with central government and is more powerless in determining European policy. You're still wrong and if you look carefully at the reality you won't like how you are coming across. Stand by what you like. You are wrong.

And Mistigri wasn't rude or insulting, FFS.

" Should I assume that your knowledge of european institutions is equally non-existent?"

I suppose we have different ideas of rudeness