Immigrant / Freedom of movement What do we actually mean?

[bkgirl]

I voted leave and am against free movement. It seems apparent that most people think some sort of controls are necessary.
I guess it's like having a party - you can invite a certain amount but if it is open house, well it's gonna end up a disaster for everyone.
By the same token, who am I inviting? Yep, I would like lots of different people at my party but I also don't want them fighting. People should get along for the party to be a success.
So surely controls and balances are appropriate? It's not about limiting immigration (which can be very positive) to silly numbers but setting it at levels we can cope with and it will maintain tolerance between the groups.Every group should feel safe here that requires one group doesn't dominate another.It also requires that everyone conforms to our laws. I don't know what that figure is? No doubt ukip's numbers are too small but what is the right figure?
By maintaining a tolerant society, the extreme right wing will lose their energy/power.
Maybe some remainers would see the sense in this? Or do you still feel the freedom of movement makes sense? (Forget about what the EU wants, just think about what YOU want for here).

Maybe it's because people don't understand this business of asylum seekers not being allowed to work that they've got the idea that 'immigrants' come to the UK to get benefits and lounge around, after seeing them walking down the streets not looking for a job, which is what they're supposed to do!

Hear hear Joysmum.

Good, we appear to be able to talk about immigration! I do think it'd be sad to only take those with skills 'we' lack, 1/ because it depletes other countries of their own talents which is not fair (and I disagree that the UK's interests and safety are protected long-term by other countries lagging behind), and 2/ because I can't see the disadvantage in people experiencing living in another culture for the sake of it. They might take ideas back to their own country and improve it for instance or vice versa. I think there's value in citizens mixing with each other, and it works both ways, the UK can gain at that too. But then I might be biased.

Fawful

There are parts of the UK where a lot of a street will have immigrants in a row, so it feels like a sudden influx. Some of the immigrants aren't working and tend to be the poorest ones, they are then housed next to UK residents who are umemployed, poor and in higher crime areas

The people you are talking about who are poor, immigrants and not working and congregating in some areas of the country are asylum seekers waiting for their application to be processed. This can take up to 18 months. It means they have come here any way they could and are making the case to be allowed to stay on the grounds that they are in danger if they go home. Obviously their claims need to be checked etc which takes a long time. While they are waiting, they are put up and given (v little) money, and are not allowed to work.
If they do get caught working repeatedly, they end up in a detention centre while they carry on waiting for their application to be processed.
There would be s lot of them in the areas they are sent to by the government, obviously. They don't all stay in Dover where they mostly arrive, they are scattered around.
They are not being lazy, they're just waiting.

Fawful I am not talking about refugees or asylum seekers, please don't try and insult me. There are several immigrants who have come over and done some work for a few months, they then maintain their 'worker status'. They can then go home and re-enter the UK with their family and 'look for work' (maintaining their status) but quite often they struggle to find regular work again.

Please do some more research.

Not once did I say ANYONE was lazy, DO NOT twist my words. The example I gave was about causing tension in communities, it wasn't about who was lazy out of the UK unemployed and who was lazy out of the immigrant unemployed.

Apricot what you call a silly argument is pretty much a version of John Rawls's veil of ignorance, the most influential political argument for modern liberal democracies. If you have a significant objection against it the philosophical and political world is waiting with batted breath, otherwise best to keep to lesser superlatives.

My great grandfather immigrated from Greece to Egypt age 7, on his own right after both his parents had died. He took up work in a bottle factory, putting corks in bottles and worked his way up to owning the factory. My husband's great grandfather threw himself in the sea to escape the Turkish army after the Asia Minor disaster and barely made it to a boat whose sailors took pity on the young child (11) and pulled him on board. He was dropped off on he island of Limnos with nothing but the clothes on his back. A local farming family took him in and he eventually married one of their daughters. My husband's maternal great grandfather voted for Hitler and remained a racist to the end of his days. How easily people forget where they came from and what got them where we are today. How anyone can turn their backs on drowning families, chased from a ruined country because of war, is beyond me.

All I'm saying is that if people aren't familiar with the way asylum seeking works, they will see a lot of people idling in the streets and they will naturally wonder why. It might be weird if they didn't wonder why!
I don't know how you can be sure of acquaintances' immigration status - I would never dream of asking anyone about theirs, and no one ever asked me about mine (apart from my work place, of course).
This conversation is about trends and trying to understand who does what and why anyway, in order to find a way forward, it's not about the odd person doing anything.

Fawful

This conversation is about trends and trying to understand who does what and why anyway, in order to find a way forward, it's not about the odd person doing anything.

Which is exactly what my example was about, you tried to turn it in to something else, not me! You have been deliberately Goady to most leave voters on here for the past couple of days.

There are several immigrants who have come over and done some work for a few months, they then maintain their 'worker status'.

I think the UK can cope with several immigrants!

merrymouse

I never said they couldn't, read the full comment before trying to be a smart arse.

Just to bring some factual information here only 65,000 EU immigratns were claiming job seekrs allowance last year, and not all of them for all of that.

So in a population of 4 million this means that only 1.6% of the EU population claim JSA and it means that they are under represented here.

apricotsorbet99
Thank you for some sensible comments on immigration

Oh good god,

I was talking about putting unemployed or very low wage immigrants in the same community as unemployed or very low wage british people. I was talking about the negative tension it can create, especially in areas that have a known far right following. I was saying Local Councils could put more thought in to.

But yes go ahead and ignore all my previous comments and try and make things fit your agenda.

I thought fitting things to their agenda was a leaver tactic, it certainly seems to be so with the use of data and expert opinion. Attack any sources that disagree with you yet make continual appeals to authority when you find someone who does agree with you.

Interesting.

Asprilla, I have read the whole thread. However, you posting quite a lot of information without clarifying where you have found it. That is why I am questioning your use of 'several'. It's not really clear what you mean.

And how does the government 'put' people anywhere? You have clarified that you aren't talking about asylum seekers, but EU citizens have freedom of movement.

Asprilla, I have read the whole thread. However, you posting quite a lot of information without clarifying where you have found it. That is why I am questioning your use of 'several'. It's not really clear what you mean.

I used the word several once, in relation to the 'maintain worker status' group. The figure is in the tens of thousands. If you don't believe me then go and look for yourself.

Again my example was not about numbers of people, it was about putting poor people with poor people, including racist british people. You are trying to attack me when I am saying it's the fault of the councils and the racist brits, not the immigrants!

I'm not trying to attack you, I am trying to understand what you are saying.

EU immigration has contributed greatly to the British economy, however any money benifted should have gone back into the system to support them.

And how does the government 'put' people anywhere? You have clarified that you aren't talking about asylum seekers, but EU citizens have freedom of movement.

Not the Government, but Local Councils when immigrants are trying to find housing. They don't consider local support groups for them or if they could be the target of abuse.

Your barking up the wrong tree in trying to make me out to be racist or xenophobic, if you read my threads and knew my background you'd know you couldn't call me that.

I am one of the few leave voters on here who is trying to expand on the reasons why possibly some leave voters voted because of immigration, even though I didn't.

However I will no longer respond.

But the EU immigrants aren't housed by the councils Asprilla, they are oevrwhelmingly in private rentals. Also the "poor areas" have much lower immigration levels than those with greater economic prosperity.

you're talking about small numbers, in very specific sitiuations to justify your point.

I would have voted remain if I had a vote, but one aspect that hasn't been discussed much impacts me personally. I left the UK and married an American 12 years ago. I can't return home now with my family due to a knee jerk reaction a few years ago when 'immigration' started to be seen as a problem. The government couldn't 'control' immigration from the EU so in an effort to control the numbers they have made it almost impossible for any non-EU citizens to get in to the UK. In order to move back to the UK with my family, we'd need about significant savings in a bank account for six months and a job lined up in the UK- you can't just show assets, you have to have cash in the bank that has been there for more than 6 months.

There's something wrong with a system that keeps British citizens with non-EU spouses out, but allows anyone from within the EU in. After Sandy Hook, I desperately wanted to move back home, scared for my 2 kids - and was devastated to find I couldn't.

Again though Shanster, national policy set by the government,not EU policy.

Also if the media hadn't blown the immigration debate out of proportion then it wouldn't be an issue at all.

All those Northern towns with miniscule EU populations voting out cause immigrants come and take their jobs. Words fail me.

smallfox1980

SOME Local Councils do. Private renting is not the case overwhelmingly in some parts of the UK though (it is still a majority), not everything is about london or the south east.

I also never said or implied it was big numbers or even significant numbers. I am not trying to justify any point other than there are examples where it happens and it creates tension in communities.

I was not blaming any immigrans for ANYTHING. I am trying to show why some people in the UK MAY have felt a certain way.

But again you just want to goad, I've learned my lesson now, some people just want to attack and not talk, goodbye.

Very few local councils do, and as the statistics suggest that 95% of recent immigrants are in private renting, whilst the over all number of immigrants (EU and non EU) make up 9% of all social housing tenants.

This suggests that an extremely small number of recent EU immigrants housed by any council.

smallfox, I agree with you. Most people in the UK are shocked when I tell them I can't return, but its never highlighted in the media or in the national debate. The UK government was just trying to manipulate the numbers to meet their net migration target, and non-EU immigration was something they could slash easily. I personally believe we should all be able to travel and work freely. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation, the UK can and should accept immigration from within and outside the EU.