Immigrant / Freedom of movement What do we actually mean?

[bkgirl]

I voted leave and am against free movement. It seems apparent that most people think some sort of controls are necessary.
I guess it's like having a party - you can invite a certain amount but if it is open house, well it's gonna end up a disaster for everyone.
By the same token, who am I inviting? Yep, I would like lots of different people at my party but I also don't want them fighting. People should get along for the party to be a success.
So surely controls and balances are appropriate? It's not about limiting immigration (which can be very positive) to silly numbers but setting it at levels we can cope with and it will maintain tolerance between the groups.Every group should feel safe here that requires one group doesn't dominate another.It also requires that everyone conforms to our laws. I don't know what that figure is? No doubt ukip's numbers are too small but what is the right figure?
By maintaining a tolerant society, the extreme right wing will lose their energy/power.
Maybe some remainers would see the sense in this? Or do you still feel the freedom of movement makes sense? (Forget about what the EU wants, just think about what YOU want for here).

Well I've seen how Europeans help our economy grow, especially when it comes to the lower paid jobs (in sectors such as retail, catering, hospitality, cleaning etc).

I've seen how (now this is just ONE example so don't go flaming me for it!) due to Spain's poor economy and lack of jobs, a lot of Spaniards have relocated to the UK and taken on whatever job they can find. I've befriended many Spanish people who have degrees or a masters in law or architecture and the like, spent years of studying only to find there's no employment in their country so they come over to the UK and take on jobs that you don't even need GCSEs for.

And I'm sorry but I also know British people who have actually said "I'm not doing that job" because they feel it is beneath them. And most of these jobs are low paid manual labour. So if we, the British, won't do these jobs, then who will? Our jobs aren't being taken, we're refusing the jobs in the first place!

For many people the UK is a lifeline and I'm quite proud to say we have a free movement policy in place because there are people who are in a worse off position, who literally have to move to survive. And yes I'm fully aware that there are cases like this in the UK too but the problem starts when instead of doing what the Europeans do and move to find better jobs, the British start complaining that foreigners are coming over stealing their jobs. When have you ever heard a Frenchman say "I hate the British, they come over here, take our jobs"?

Also I cannot understand how it is ok to not have a free movement policy but the amount of expats and retired people who relocate to sunnier climes within the EU is acceptable? Can't have your cake and eat it too.

On the flip side, I do see how it can be a piss take for a European to be offered a job over a British person in the UK but that's not down to the free movement policy. That's down to the company hiring. If they feel the European is better qualified/more experienced/adds value to their company then of course they're going to do what they think is better for their company, not worry about the nationalities of their candidates.

Also not sure about your statement "one group doesn't dominate another" OP. People tend to stick with each other and create a community within an area because it gives them a sense of belonging so they don't feel so alienated being in a new country and not being used to it. So people from the same country who have been there for a while can facilitate that transition. You can't govern communities, it may cross over into transgressing rights in the sense that you'll be racially profiling and putting limits on people of a specific nationality. Can you imagine each borough of London not being allowed more than 20% French/German/Italian/Spanish/Polish residents? The uproar that would cause!

I think where you live in the UK has an influence on how you see immigration, whether it's EU or Non-EU.

For a lot of people it is seen in terms of economics. It's a fact immigration (of both sorts) brings in much more to the economy than it pays out in benefits. It is also a fact that immigrants do really important work in the NHS, Care Sector and various other sectors and services.

However, I think that is where some people end their opinion, which is more than fair, but I do think there are further things to think about which may have caused other people to fester concerns.

For example, the claim of "they are taking our jobs" is wrong and a bit silly. But in a very small number of areas (usually poorer) a few firms have recruited by only advertising and interviewing people from the EU, this has been confirmed in the News etc. Linked to this example is the claim that "immigrants are driving down our wages", this is also not wide scale but it does happen. There are a few companies that have hired immigrants who don't know the minimum wage and are just grateful for a job, this is ilegal but has to be reported first. Paying cash in hand is a way to keep it off the books and again this has been confirmed, but there are only a small amount of cases.

Even though these are isolated cases the rumours can soon be exaggerated and get around all of a town quite quickly.

Both of those examples can be solved by the UK, it's not the immigrants fault and it's not the EU's fault. Those are Council, Government, HMRC and Police matters. The trouble is if nobody explains that to the public some of them will wrongly blame immigration.

There is an issue with some immigrants undercutting in jobs like building and plumbing. Now this happens in every country in the world, some more than others but there is not a lot you can do about it. Whilst I have sympathy with those people who struggle financially because of that, but it's still wrong to blame all immigration because of it, competition is the problem, it doesn't matter where they come from.

The final issue I feel is possibly the biggest problem. This one definitely depends on where you live. Most immigrants work and live their lives mixed in with the local community. However not all immigrants and not all UK residents work. There are parts of the UK where a lot of a street will have immigrants in a row, so it feels like a sudden influx. Some of the immigrants aren't working and tend to be the poorest ones, they are then housed next to UK residents who are umemployed, poor and in higher crime areas. You will also have examples of 10 or more people living in a 2 bedroom house, the landlords turn a blind eye as long as they get more money.

If you add to that housing situation the fact that we are already overcrowed in housing terms in the UK then you can see why tensions begin to develop. The UK is massively behind on Social and Low cost homes, we aren't building enough for normal population growth, let alone EU and Non-EU immigration growth. I don't think all parts of the UK realise what is like in some of these areas.

Again this is not the immigrants fault, it's successive Governments and Local Councils. The Government has not built enough homes for decades and to keep up with immigration they need even more. Local Councils do no real planning on where they house immigrants and have no local support networks set up for them. Putting people in areas of unemployment, crime and racist attitudes is a disaster waiting to happen, but avoidable!

If successive Governments had planned better, talked in detail with the public and councils then a lot of this misplaced resentment would have been avioded and even less racism left to fester.

I think you can either have free movement with very limited welfare (the u.s model) or controlled movement with more welfare. I am all for people taking their chances where 'the streets are pAved with gold' but it has to be a high risk strategy (as it is for someone moving from the rust belt to Manhattan or california'. In addition we really are unpleasantly crowded in London and the s.e. It is not easy to provide suitable housing for millions of immigrants.

I am not really sure why it is illiberal to want migration to be controlled on a points system (to maybe even include a lottery element like the u.s).

If you read my post, OP, I never mention refugees. Economic migrants also risk their lives with traffickers. No one is 'twisting your words'. I am merely pointing out that the party metaphor is completely inappropriate for talking about immigration.

I am pro freedom of movement within the EU. UKIP likes to talk about millions of people coming here but the vast majority of people choose to stay in their own country. Most people stay put because they like their own country, they want to live near family, moving abroad would push them out of their comfort zone. Immigrants are often ambitious younger people with a desire to work and make a good life for themselves.

Immigrants are accused of putting a strain on the system. In the case of the NHS they tend to be younger and fit. They are more likely to be working for the NHS or paying taxes to fund it than using huge resources. There is a big problem with lack of social housing in the UK but the social housing stock was systematically sold off cheaply under 'right to buy' and never replaced. It is the towns and cities of the U.K with the lowest number of immigrants who are often the most worried about them (looking at you MIL). Who will they blame if immigration is brought down to UKIP acceptable levels and nothing gets better? Indeed our inability to fund the pension system could get a lot worse without young tax payers coming in.

Moonrise,

You are attacking a straw man. Who has suggested stopping economically active and well qualified immigrants coming? A points system encourages them.

FAw NO, I am not an immigrant just as wouldn't be an immigrant if I moved from one city in the country I was born to another. I am simply exercising my freedom of movement within the EU. I'd happily call myself an immigrant if I moved to country outside the EU. My father was an immigrant in my native country so no negative connotation there.

" I believe in a caring state that we can pay into when he work and pay taxes (not avoid them) and we all should benefit from the same state when it's needed."
Good luck with this then going forward.

Do you really think politicians are now going to invest in excellent schooling, children's centres, enable disadvantaged Brits to access high quality further and higher education, and invest in housing? How? They haven't got the money. Let's see how caring the state will be .

My codicil is that I cannot understand how immigration can be limitless. It simply doesn't make sense.

Limitless is such an emotive term stirring a fear of this undefined mass exodus of foreigners
So far Britain has done very nicely from immigration. It's been great for the economy. On a different note, the migrant stream from Africa and the ME will not cease any time soon. Being outside of the EU we have much less control over how that is managed. That was stupid.

I am certainly not just talking about the well qualified. If you are worried about people coming here to live off welfare then have tighter rules on eligibility to claim (as indeed has been brought in recently). It is not the EU's fault that we made people immediately eligible for benefits. This is not the case in other EU countries.

I am against totally unlimited immigration, but have no problem with freedom of movement within the EU. We have so much in common with other EU countries and I see them as a beacon of tolerance in a world where liberties are starting to be rolled back. European countries have the same traditions of culture and respect for the law and women, which cannot be said for all countries. I strongly feel that I am an EU citizen and have no more problem with freedom of movement with the EU than within the UK. The EU is also overall prosperous, so 500m are not suddenly going to try and come here. I have seen no evidence that EU immigration had been anything but a positive.

Europe has had so many wars and the best way to end them is to encourage integration, not build walls. The experience of N Ireland is that it is being insular and having no integration which leads to narrow mindedness and intolerance. Those people from NI (including myself) who have moved abroad have their eyes opened to how limiting and dangerous nationalism is. Even in NI, immigration in places like Dungannon is positive for breaking down insularity and for making people realise there is a wider world.

On the other hand, I thought Merkel's total opening of borders to non-EU was madness. There is a huge difference in culture between Europe and N Africa/Middle East and that could destabilise a country. This is not EU immigration but non EU.

By breaking away from the EU, the UK has encouraged the rise of the far right, both in the UK and abroad. The building of walls to our closest neighbours (including the possible reinstatement of the NI border) will do nothing to encourage peace and tolerance. The Leave vote is interpreted both at home and especially abroad as a vote for Farage and nationalism. The subtleties of controlled immigration are lost on many people who thought they had voted for all immigrants to go home. and think that this is now an acceptable thing to say. I understand you may have had other motives, but it is not making these islands a welcoming, tolerant place, nor encouraging long-term stability.

"You are attacking a straw man. Who has suggested stopping economically active and well qualified immigrants coming? A points system encourages them."

That sweet. Many of my highly skilled 'immigrant' friends are feeling extremely uncomfortable about the overt xenophobia since Brexit (more covert before) and looking for better options as they don't feel up to feeling unwelcome, why should they Britain is not the Land of milk and honey. With the obvious xenophobia and racism Britain won't be attractive to the best international business and academic heads. But sure, go ahead with your points .

Just changed,

'So much in common with other eu countries'

Well the Romanian average salary is 20% of the average uk salary. And if you think the Balkans are not overtly anti Semitic, you just need to do a bit of googling.

I am not optimistic for the future of the eu, and especially the eirozone. The euro crisis a few years ago has just been postponed, not cured. Of course, now, when it does fall apart, Brexit will be the fall guy. Currency and political integrations need some commonality of culture, language and at least broadly similar economics.

Baby and bathwater comes to mind but continue on your self-congratulatory selectively informed rants.

OK, I accept that Romania may be different, but they are a very small part of the EU. It is not a reason to throw our back on the continent, especially not after the UK was the major country pushing for EU enlargement. Significant parts of the UK qualified for structural funds as their income was below EU average.

I agree the Eurozone is too wide, but we were not part of it. We had also opted out of ever closer union. We had all the benefits of being in the EU, without the downsides (Eurozone).

But anyway, do kid yourself that voting leave is a pro-immigrant, pro-tolerance strategy, and a major blow for the far right (of which Farage and UK are part of).

Just,

Do you think we could have remained in eu but out of eurozone forever? Personally I don't.

That is the thing about a lot of 'remainers'. They wanted the status quo forever and ever amen. It wasn't on offer. The European project will either collapse or deepen (common currency, tax harmonisation). Look historically. Show me a union without the above which has endured.

Aside from economics, as someone of Jewish descent, I am just not comfortable that Europe is not swinging towards antisemitism again. The panglossians among the remainers believe inviting in a lot of openly antisemitism countries will be a force for good in those countries. I am just not that trustful. It was very much swept under the carpet when they entered. I prefer to trust in our traditional tolerance (knowing that things are far from perfect here right now).

The EU is embarking on a 2-speed Europe, so yes we could have kept that for the foreseeable future. Instead, we have gone into a world where the future prosperity of this country may be determined by ideologues (Gove, Leadsom). Ideologues are always dangerous, no matter what the ideology.

But anyway, you clearly are convinced that Brexit is a vote for tolerance and a major blow to the far right and no amount of evidence will sway that belief.

Personally, I believe that opening up closed societies makes them more tolerant (I.e. EU enlargement), and that building walls and barriers (Brexit) breeds intolerance and mistrust.

Open your eyes.

Just,

You see I respect your opinion and you may be right. However you have no respect for mine 'open your eyes'.

There are two perfectly respectable opposing views. None of us know the future and either position may turn out to be right. But intolerance is not the preserve or brexiters solely.

And, if you are wrong and the influx of immigrants causes us to be openly anti Semitic, I have more skin in the game (unless you are Jewish too, of course).

Larrygrylls

My mum's family were Polish and German Jews. My great grandparents came to this country at the start of the 20th century. They partly came because of anti semitism (many years before Hitler) but were to an extent economic migrants as well. In a similar way to Ed Miliband's family my grandma's generation embraced left wing politics and my mum and myself are atheists. I too worry about anti semitism although I appreciate I am unlikely to experience it personally. I think we just see it differently- I feel that embracing countries into Europe and the equality laws and protections that come with that will help to tackle racism and anti semitism. I imagine you feel I am rather idealistic.

I do have skin in the game. I am from NI and had my childhood blighted by intolerance and division. The removal of the border - and indeed immigration - has helped to start a healing process towards becoming a normal country. Voting to reinstate the border (if we are not part of the single market) will directly blight lives.

I do respect some Leavers motives (those on low wages) but the idea that voting leave is a blow to the far right, is frankly lost on me.

Moonrise,

I hope you are right but I would like to see some evidence. Europe seems very weak on tackling antisemitism. What are they actually doing about enforcing these laws?

ApricotSorbet99 good post.

Although the UK has benefited from immigration as we had an aging population there is a point at which the disadvantages become more significant.

It's also interesting that no one seems to mention the impact on poorer countries or the immigrants, it's all about the UK and cost/ benefit to us.

Bulgaria and Romania for example are suffering significant population decline. An already aging population is being made worse and therefore these countries poorer than before. But hey as long as large businesses have cheap staff to prop up our economy we're alright Jack aren't we?

I also can't remember which thread it was that I mentioned the number of homeless people from the poorer European countries.

There are parts of the UK where a lot of a street will have immigrants in a row, so it feels like a sudden influx. Some of the immigrants aren't working and tend to be the poorest ones, they are then housed next to UK residents who are umemployed, poor and in higher crime areas

The people you are talking about who are poor, immigrants and not working and congregating in some areas of the country are asylum seekers waiting for their application to be processed. This can take up to 18 months. It means they have come here any way they could and are making the case to be allowed to stay on the grounds that they are in danger if they go home. Obviously their claims need to be checked etc which takes a long time. While they are waiting, they are put up and given (v little) money, and are not allowed to work.
If they do get caught working repeatedly, they end up in a detention centre while they carry on waiting for their application to be processed.
There would be s lot of them in the areas they are sent to by the government, obviously. They don't all stay in Dover where they mostly arrive, they are scattered around.
They are not being lazy, they're just waiting.

Exactly Fawful! Leaving the EU isn't going to reduce the number of asylum seekers.

Immigration. It's complicated. Stop expecting easy answers.

For me, yes I agree that EU immigration has net benefit to the UK. However, in my utopia I'd have and Australian points style system where the criteria changes so we only take those with the skills we lack. Of course that's have to be balanced with fixing the issues which means these lack of skills are phased out by promoting home trained talent.

That said, this country is not in a position to dictate to the EU what we will and will not accept.

Real case scenario is that trading the net gains that EU immigration has bought to our nations for immigration controls and then standing no chance of being able to secure a free trade agreement would be economic suicide.

Despite voting out (to maximise iur oportunities worldwide) I have more in common with Remainers than I have with those for whom immigration is their overriding reason for pressing the self destruct button. I'm doing all I can to show Remainers that they need to stop putting down Leavers and band together with the vast numbers of us for whom immigration didn't factor in our decision to leave. There are loads of us (despite what you might think) and we can easily outnumber the far right Leavers