Parliamentary motion tabled for second referendum

[CaptainBrickbeard]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/second-eu-referendum-pull-us-out-of-fire-make-happen?client=safari#

I strongly suspect my link doesn't work, sorry if that's the case. There is a Guardian article by Geraint Davies, Swansea MP explaining the motion he and David Lammy have tabled with regards to a second referendum, this time on the exit package.

The proposition is that a second referendum is held, giving voters the choice between the exit package available to us and staying in the UK. Effectively, this is the same referendum but this time without the two central lies of the Leave campaign - the £350 million to the NHS and the control of immigration. In terms of the Remain 'Project Fear', people could take into account the actual economic effects which have already been felt. It would be a far more informed choice.

I don't feel that this option challenges democracy in the way that some people felt another identical rederendum would. My anger at the result is based on the two fundamental untruths at the heart of the Leave campaign which I feel misled an enormous amount of voters. Who knows how a referendum without these lies would go? According to MN Leave voters, those two lies had no effect on their decision to vote Leave - if that is reflected around the country, the result will be the same. Personally, I could accept that as fair whereas I cannot accept this result when it appears to me that so many people believed they were voting to control immigration and free an enormous sum of money for the NHS, neither of which is at all true. It would be interesting to see if a second chance galvanised young voters or if they remained apathetic. Would turnout be higher or would it drop? Which way would the undecided or non voters go if they voted again? Are there really over a million Leavers with buyers' remorse or is the country full of Regretful Remainers berating themselves for cowardice? Would this deepens the horrific divisions - the racism, the ageism, the classism etc that we've seen?

I've set my stall out numerous times on here, I'm an angry Remainer and I want this second referendum to go ahead, I believe that once people know there will be freedom of movement and no extra money for the NHS even if we leave that an awful lot of them will not want to leave anymore. I an furious that Leave were able to make these claims, backtrack immediately and not be held to account. That to me is the attack on democracy, not a second referendum.

Whether Brexit happens or not, I think we are in for a huge amount of civil unrest, deep anger and disappointment, political turmoil - this whole campaign has been bitter, divisive and deeply felt for a huge range of reasons so I think we are in for hard times ahead whether we exit the EU or a way is found to stay.

If you want this referendum to go ahead, write to your MP to tell them to support the motion.

[DetestableHerytike]

Juncker et al are saying no negotiations until the trigger in today's circumstances.

If the idea was to run a referendum on a different question, their view might be a different one.

[DetestableHerytike]

Mollie, Ashcroft polls looked at a bunch of other breakdowns such as ethnicity, optimism about the future etc.

[MinistryofRevenge]

I voted remain, and refused to sign the petition for a second referendum because, for good or ill, the electorate had spoken. We are where we are, and now we need to make the best agreement we can; my fear (like many others) is that this will be a form of Norway-lite or Swiss which will restrict free movement but at the cost of losing passporting for financial services and/or EU financial support and co-operation in academic research (both of which are net contributors to the economy, as I understand it). I think that calling a second referendum, to enable people to vote on what they feel is the better of two known outcomes, will strengthen our negotiating position with the EU. At the moment, the EU is in the stronger negotiating position, with the additional political imperative that it cannot be seen to be overly generous to us on an exit, because of the succour that will give the separatist elements still within the EU - they have to effectively hang us out to dry pour encourager les autres.

Were Parliament to say that the UK would not leave without a second referendum, and that the referendum could not be held until and unless at least heads of terms were agreed, then that would change the landscape. Those within the EU who would be content for us to leave (because, make no mistake, we have been pissing people off for decades) would be a voice in those negotiations arguing for a better deal for the UK on the basis that this would be the price of not having us hanging around pissing on their chips. The separatist elements within the EU (and it's not just UKIP, many countries have separatist MEPs) would want to argue for a better deal for the UK on leaving, so they could present that as an argument to support their own leave campaigns. As art 50 would not yet have been triggered, the negotiation on heads of terms to be voted on would not be constrained by the two year time limit, so that negotiating disadvantage would disappear.

What I would hope we would end up with is a choice of either membership of the EU on standard terms (so we would have to give up all the advantages we've previously negotiated - because although the negotiations on what we'd get if we left would be easier, we'd have to give some concessions) and a known outcome which would be less harsh than the "fuck you, go and see how you do with the WTO" which we're likely to get at the moment. Plus there'd be some advantage to the UK in stretching out the negotiation for a couple of years, to exploit the EU's need for stability.

For the avoidance of doubt, I voted remain. I'm very strongly in favour of the deal we have at the moment. But I'm a child of the coalfields of the north, and I can see why people voted leave, plus I'm one of the very few for whom a leave vote is highly advantageous (particular skill set which would be valuable in negotiating trade agreements, dual nationality, language skills). I no longer have a dog in this fight, but I'm going to write to my MP to ask her to support this EDM, and tell everyone I know to do the same, just to make sure my friends, neighbours and family don't get shafted too badly.

[MelanieCheeks]

The referendum was a very foolish idea. I don't think having a second one is such a great idea.

[Quodlibet]

Great post MinistryofRevenge