Parliamentary motion tabled for second referendum

[CaptainBrickbeard]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/second-eu-referendum-pull-us-out-of-fire-make-happen?client=safari#

I strongly suspect my link doesn't work, sorry if that's the case. There is a Guardian article by Geraint Davies, Swansea MP explaining the motion he and David Lammy have tabled with regards to a second referendum, this time on the exit package.

The proposition is that a second referendum is held, giving voters the choice between the exit package available to us and staying in the UK. Effectively, this is the same referendum but this time without the two central lies of the Leave campaign - the £350 million to the NHS and the control of immigration. In terms of the Remain 'Project Fear', people could take into account the actual economic effects which have already been felt. It would be a far more informed choice.

I don't feel that this option challenges democracy in the way that some people felt another identical rederendum would. My anger at the result is based on the two fundamental untruths at the heart of the Leave campaign which I feel misled an enormous amount of voters. Who knows how a referendum without these lies would go? According to MN Leave voters, those two lies had no effect on their decision to vote Leave - if that is reflected around the country, the result will be the same. Personally, I could accept that as fair whereas I cannot accept this result when it appears to me that so many people believed they were voting to control immigration and free an enormous sum of money for the NHS, neither of which is at all true. It would be interesting to see if a second chance galvanised young voters or if they remained apathetic. Would turnout be higher or would it drop? Which way would the undecided or non voters go if they voted again? Are there really over a million Leavers with buyers' remorse or is the country full of Regretful Remainers berating themselves for cowardice? Would this deepens the horrific divisions - the racism, the ageism, the classism etc that we've seen?

I've set my stall out numerous times on here, I'm an angry Remainer and I want this second referendum to go ahead, I believe that once people know there will be freedom of movement and no extra money for the NHS even if we leave that an awful lot of them will not want to leave anymore. I an furious that Leave were able to make these claims, backtrack immediately and not be held to account. That to me is the attack on democracy, not a second referendum.

Whether Brexit happens or not, I think we are in for a huge amount of civil unrest, deep anger and disappointment, political turmoil - this whole campaign has been bitter, divisive and deeply felt for a huge range of reasons so I think we are in for hard times ahead whether we exit the EU or a way is found to stay.

If you want this referendum to go ahead, write to your MP to tell them to support the motion.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

The areas who voted most in favour of leave are the areas who are least likely to have understood what they were voting for and what the implications were.

A bit condescending.

So according to what you are saying, apart from London and a few other cities no one else knew what they were voting for.

You are also under the impression that those who voted remain knew what they voted for.

[JassyRadlett]

So according to what you are saying, apart from London and a few other cities no one else knew what they were voting for.

Well, that only works if you're really shit at maths. As far as I'm aware the Leave vote wasn't 100% (or even close) anywhere.

Meanwhile, I'll just marvel at parliamentary process and citizen referenda, those well-known hallmarks of dictatorships.

That's nearly as good as all the people saying 'it's a democracy and we won so shut up about it!' I don't think some people get that democracy isn't a one-off.

[Winterbiscuit]

"That's nearly as good as all the people saying 'it's a democracy and we won so shut up about it!' I don't think some people get that democracy isn't a one-off."

What is a referendum for? Would you be saying the same if remain had won?

[WaitroseTrolley]

Mother fellow north-Easter here. I think we get £570m from the EU. So, looking forward to that going. If the likes of Nissan shrink/disappear as well that too will be great.

[JassyRadlett]

What is a referendum for? Would you be saying the same if remain had won?

The way the UK runs them, I'm not quite sure.

But yes, if Remain had won I wouldn't dream of telling people who voted Leave to fuck off and shut up (as I've seen numerous times) and neither would I expect UKIP to instantly disband, taking a referendum (and one so appallingly run on both sides, though I do think the mendacity was greater on the Leave side - the bus, for example) as the final word on the question of Britain's position in Europe.

People have political goals and on such a fundamental issue relating to citizenship, economic stability and the future place of the country in the world, that is so finely balanced in electoral terms, it is entirely unreasonable to say to people who were in the 48% rather than the 52% 'well, you lost, please proceed to take no further interest in the issue, including on how it is implemented and whether that implementation is in fact palatable to all of the 52%'.

[JassyRadlett]

What is a referendum for?

Actually having reflected I think I know the answer to this one now. Isn't it 'to gain votes at a general election and mollify the right wing of the Conservative party with a promise the leader never thought he would have to implement'?

[MotherOfBleach]

That's exactly my point, Waitrose.

The people of the NE didn't realise that voting out may threaten the future of Nissan or cut funding to the adult learner courses they are applying to because no-one told them.

Of course the BBC, Telegraph and The Times all ran articles about how damaging for business such as Nissan Leave could be, but it didn't reach the people it should have been aimed at.

That alone is not a reason for another referendum, but these people who were blindly led into voting for something that would disproportionately adversly effect them deserve a say in what happens next.

[MotherOfBleach]

They also lay the blame of the decline in steel squarely on the shoulders of the EU, despite the fact that the EU tried to temper the influx of Chinese steel into Europe and it was in fact domestic policy that kept the price of our steel higher than that of the rest of Europe.

[Winterbiscuit]

If the remain side had won, there could have been a lot of "what have we done?"

[RosesareSublime]

Could have been, no, would have been Winter, the EU is a growing morphing beast, that needs feeding, with money and countries.

At any cost.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

For me, a lot would depend on when they intended to hold the proposed second referendum

Even though I disagree with the idea in principle, I can just about see an argument for doing this when the whole "exit package" is fully clear to everyone, but the cynic in me says what they really want is an earlier vote, based on what they claim we'll get ... in other words, yet more self-serving lies

[Basicbrown]

Remain's arguments were far more complex and relied upon people having at least a basic knowledge of the EU, economics and politics

No, they talked utter shit too.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

Remain's arguments were far more complex and relied upon people having at least a basic knowledge of the EU, economics and politics

Well I'm not sure shouting about WWIII or armagedon requires much knowledge of anything.

[Peregrina]

The areas who voted most in favour of leave are the areas who are least likely to have understood what they were voting for and what the implications were.

Substitute people for areas in the above.

This should reflect my MIL: in her 90s, so more likely to be in the Leave camp; left school at 14, so again likely to vote Leave; always going on about immigrants; reads the Daily Mail....You get the picture. Yet she weighed up the issues as best she could and decided that Remain was the best option.

And despite all these apparent factors against her making a reasoned decision, she took it seriously, and didn't treat it as a bit of a lark as BoJo and others did.

[CaptainBrickbeard]

Peregrina, apparently whilst over 60s were more likely to vote Leave, it flipped back to Remain for voters in their late 80s and 90s. So she was in the Remain age category!

[Peregrina]

Winterbiscuit
You give a link saying:
Sorry, Chancellor, but the economic argument for the EU has not been won. Here’s why

For anyone reading the article they quickly come to the sentence:
Ryanair has lost its status as the fastest-growing budget airline in Europe: that honour goes to Norwegian Air, which has thrived outside the EU.

Ah yes, this is the Norway, which although not in the EU, has to pay the membership fee for access to the market and doesn't get a rebate as the UK does, has to abide by EU regulations and free movement of labour.
A sort of EU lite - but not one which addresses the immigration issue, nor one to address the saving of money to divert to the NHS, nor one which 'gives us back our sovereignity.'

[Peregrina]

apparently whilst over 60s were more likely to vote Leave, it flipped back to Remain for voters in their late 80s and 90s. So she was in the Remain age category!

But why? She ticked all the Leave boxes.

[CaptainBrickbeard]

I just meant that her age category was more likely to vote Remain, I mentioned it because I think the shift is interesting - that the very elderly voters largely went for Remain whilst the 65-80ish group went for Leave. I don't have an agenda or anything for why I think it's interesting, I just do - as so much has been made of the older vote for Brexit, but the much older vote was to Remain. Anyway, good for your MIL doing her research and going for Remain, I'm very glad she did and wish more people had.

[SaltyMyDear]

Surely that's because the 80+ voters remember the war and appreciate what a force for peace in Europe the EU has been.

[ErrolTheDragon]

apparently whilst over 60s were more likely to vote Leave, it flipped back to Remain for voters in their late 80s and 90s. So she was in the Remain age category!

oh, that's interesting - and doesn't surprise me. That is the generation who experienced WWII as young adults (the youngest possible age to have served, just, is 87). They're the wise heads who were more likely to appreciate the peace and prosperity of a united Europe.

[Peregrina]

Yes, I think there is something in that the over 80s remember the horrors of the war. I think I was trying to answer those who say that some people believed the propaganda, and didn't know better. I must admit that MIL's vote surprised me.

[CaptainBrickbeard]

I would have thought living through the war as a young adult would definitely have made you appreciate a united Europe for sure. But why did the generation that came immediately afterwards vote Leave in such numbers?

[ErrolTheDragon]

Oh, and of course they are (or sadly in most cases now, were) the generation who understood the evil our country helped defeat in WWII. They must be so saddened to see the emergence of racism in some and isolationism in others.

[Peregrina]

Don't ask me, because although I'm in the 65+ group (just), I voted Remain.

[mollie123]

For about the umpteenth time - do not refer to those who voted 'leave' as those people as if they were one amorphous mass who were ignorant or racist (all 17.5 million then)
There are no statistics about how any particular age group voted
there was no indicator on the ballot paper to signify age, gender or ethnicity.
the only statistic there was geographical area!
A final poll done by you-gov used the results of asking a small sample their ages and how they voted and extrapolated that to the known age demographics of the geographical area.
Not an exact science although this age breakdown has acquired legs and resulting in nasty ageist attacks in the media when in fact no-one knows the actual age distribution of either camp
Now imagine if ethnic origin was used from the sample and extrapolated from the make-up of geographical area (just as valid an exercise) there would be cries of 'not allowed'