Parliamentary motion tabled for second referendum

[CaptainBrickbeard]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/second-eu-referendum-pull-us-out-of-fire-make-happen?client=safari#

I strongly suspect my link doesn't work, sorry if that's the case. There is a Guardian article by Geraint Davies, Swansea MP explaining the motion he and David Lammy have tabled with regards to a second referendum, this time on the exit package.

The proposition is that a second referendum is held, giving voters the choice between the exit package available to us and staying in the UK. Effectively, this is the same referendum but this time without the two central lies of the Leave campaign - the £350 million to the NHS and the control of immigration. In terms of the Remain 'Project Fear', people could take into account the actual economic effects which have already been felt. It would be a far more informed choice.

I don't feel that this option challenges democracy in the way that some people felt another identical rederendum would. My anger at the result is based on the two fundamental untruths at the heart of the Leave campaign which I feel misled an enormous amount of voters. Who knows how a referendum without these lies would go? According to MN Leave voters, those two lies had no effect on their decision to vote Leave - if that is reflected around the country, the result will be the same. Personally, I could accept that as fair whereas I cannot accept this result when it appears to me that so many people believed they were voting to control immigration and free an enormous sum of money for the NHS, neither of which is at all true. It would be interesting to see if a second chance galvanised young voters or if they remained apathetic. Would turnout be higher or would it drop? Which way would the undecided or non voters go if they voted again? Are there really over a million Leavers with buyers' remorse or is the country full of Regretful Remainers berating themselves for cowardice? Would this deepens the horrific divisions - the racism, the ageism, the classism etc that we've seen?

I've set my stall out numerous times on here, I'm an angry Remainer and I want this second referendum to go ahead, I believe that once people know there will be freedom of movement and no extra money for the NHS even if we leave that an awful lot of them will not want to leave anymore. I an furious that Leave were able to make these claims, backtrack immediately and not be held to account. That to me is the attack on democracy, not a second referendum.

Whether Brexit happens or not, I think we are in for a huge amount of civil unrest, deep anger and disappointment, political turmoil - this whole campaign has been bitter, divisive and deeply felt for a huge range of reasons so I think we are in for hard times ahead whether we exit the EU or a way is found to stay.

If you want this referendum to go ahead, write to your MP to tell them to support the motion.

[Grassgreendashhabi]

If there is a second referendum and remain won then obviously there would be a third!!!

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

Do you think England should be allowed to play against Iceland again because we didn't get the result we wanted?

[AdrenalineFudge]

Yes Grass it would be chaos and the EU would never take our posturing seriously again. We'd have to tow the line. For 4 decades we've been behaving like a spoilt child wrt Europe and now they're the ones telling us to fuck off. Rightly so imo but I don't think we should back track.

[MotherOfBleach]

No, ProfessorP, I don't, but then again I don't think football is half as important as our economy. I accept that I might be alone in this opinion.

[53rdAndBird]

Looks like a good number of people in this thread don't get the difference between this idea and "rerun the same referendum again". So I don't think there's much chance of getting the whole country to see the point.

So we don't know what we're going to negotiate or what we even want. And whatever happens we're going to end up with a lot of angry people who feel like their vote wasn't heard at all ("what do you MEAN, we still have to comply with EU legislation/accept free movement/have an underfunded NHS?")

What a ridiculous mess we're in.

[CaptainBrickbeard]

Good grief, it's not the same question and if you think it parallels a football match (in which I supported Iceland all the way btw) then it really shows the triviality of your thinking on something with momentous consequences for all of our future.

Essentially, it isn't exactly a triumph of direct democracy when people have been deliberately lied to on two clear issues: they were told to vote Leave to reduce immigration and in order to free up £350 million for the NHS. David Cameron acknowledged the enormous influence that the issue of immigration had on the result when he addressed the EU in Brussels in Tuesday. Immediately after the result, it has become clear that we will have freedom of movement and therefore immigration will not be reduced. The £350 million has also evaporated. Do you really believe Leave would have won if people had known that it wouldn't have the promised impact on immigration? We would not be facing Brexit if that lie had not been told. So giving people a chance to vote again with that knowledge is NOT trying again until we get the 'right' result. Leaving the EU on the basis of deliberate deception, the utter chaos which has subsequently ensued backing up what a disaster it is - that would be cutting off our nose to spite our face. Comparing it to a fucking football match shows that you have absolutely no comprehension of the significance and importance of this decision.

[AdrenalineFudge]

53rdAndBird That's rather disingenuous. I think people on the thread do understand that it isn't the same referendum/question again. The OP made that very clear.

[53rdAndBird]

We have obviously understood some of the posts above rather differently, then. Specifically the ones talking about "best of three", comparing it to re-running the Iceland football match, making people keep voting until they give the correct answer, and so on...

[53rdAndBird]

Although I agree the OP made it clear, but that's the point - people will still SEE it as an attempt by sulky Remain campaigners to ignore the result of the first referendum by effectively running it again.

[RosesareSublime]

My anger at the result is based on the two fundamental untruths at the heart of the Leave campaign which I feel misled an enormous amount of voters

please don't feel angry I am sure most leave voters understood it was an exaggerated claim and was made in the sense of " we could". The bottom line is that - there is a huge amount of money paid to the EU that we will be able to do with - what we want too.

Money freed up.

How do you know controlling immigration is a lie? Surely you can only make that statement if it comes out as policy?
I think you will find leave voters voted on a huge range of issues. Farcical that some think people saw this 350 mill on the side of a bus and decided to vote leave purely and solely because of it.

What disturbs me is the lack of information on the remain side. You cannot possibly guarantee any of the concerns would be sorted out, wouldn't go through, are not on the table.

[53rdAndBird]

there is a huge amount of money paid to the EU that we will be able to do with - what we want too.

Yeah, like - continue to pay it to the EU for access to the single market.

[RosesareSublime]

they were told to vote Leave to reduce immigration and in order to free up £350 million for the NHS




they were told......

Oh were they! "They" the automatons who are mere shells of human beings? The drones, the ones who its OK to degenerate to de humanise to - deny the vote. ....

What next op?

[EverythingWillBeFine]

I don't want a second referendum.
Sorry but politicians would just make it another personal fight for their own personal interest. Media and newspaper will give even more biased information. And people have shown they are voting on emotions and feelings not in facts.tfatbwoynd be the worst choice ever IMO.

We've reached the limits of what democracy can do

[RosesareSublime]

Many dont want the single market and your speculating.

[imother]

1. We HAVE not left the EU.
   
2. We don't know what the deal will be when we do. At the mo there's lots of posturing and feelings are running before sense & reflection.
   
3. FACT - we have a trade deficit with the EU - meaning they have far more to lose than us if there's no deal
   
4. It's far far too soon to react in anyway definitively. Apart from getting our internal politics sorted, which is happening.

[MotherOfBleach]

Farcical that some think people saw this 350 mill on the side of a bus and decided to vote leave purely and solely because of it.

The first person I spoke to last week was almost in tears because the NHS weren't getting 350 million. She didn't vote to leave the EU, I'm not sure she even understands what the EU actually is. She voted to save the NHS.

A member of my family is still convinced that we now have an extra 350 million a week to pump into our NHS, schools and impoverished areas and that we will "get sharia courts out of the UK"

A lot of people did not understand what they were voting for. They have a low education and did no more research than watching Boris stood in front of that bloody bus, along with Facebook told them.

[53rdAndBird]

Many dont want the single market and your speculating.

What am I speculating?

[CaptainBrickbeard]

Yes, you're right Roses, I want to deny the vote to all the people I have dehumanised, exactly. It's not like there haven't been significant numbers of people on the news asserting very clearly that they voted in order to reduce immigration and free up millions of pounds for the NHS and they are angry that this isn't going to happen.

Far from dehumanising these people, I'm angry on their behalf that they were lied to and have been misled into voting for something that will make their lives worse. I don't want to take their vote away, I am neither dehumanising nor disenfranchising anyone.

[RosesareSublime]

Mother I could happily counter remain voters who did so because they didn't want more expensive holidays.
Amazing with a poster such as yourself in the family that this person still has these allusions? Very odd.

I have not come across any of these people myself. People on both sides will be highly educated or highly intelligent in all its various forms, and un educated. None of that boils down to much really. Being un educated still does not = you lack the wherewithal to make the decision.
You can be highly educated and still vote to keep your holiday costs down.

[RosesareSublime]

Far from dehumanising these people, I'm angry on their behalf that they were lied to and have been misled into voting for something that will make their lives worse

The way your talking about leave voters is the classic " does he take sugar" line.

[53rdAndBird]

Well, how are we supposed to talk about politicians lying, then?

Can't say "they told the truth!" because they did not.

Can't say "they lied!" because that's somehow insulting people who might have believed it.

Suppose we should all just act like the "£350m for our NHS" claims never happened?

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

Well those that campaigned for remain weren't exactly truthful either.

Both campaigns were dire.

[CaptainBrickbeard]

53rd I think we are supposed to go with the line that NO ONE believed the bus, of course everyone could see it was a lie and immigration wasn't a factor for anyone because all the people who voted did loads of independent research and really everyone laughed at the £350 million and knew that Vote Leave didn't mean it really so why does it matter?

What's the sugar thing? Sorry, I don't recognise the reference.

[Pangurban1]

Since the 'choice' went to the electorate in the first place, it is in the spirit of this that the package resulting from that choice should also go to referendum.

This time an independent referendum commission to keep propaganda in check.

Unfortunately, the package will only be known after the exit and then the time to negotiate a trade deal with the EU. At the moment the package would be blank because nobody can guarantee a thing. It has to be the agreed outcome of talks.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I was remain voter .

I think we can have another referendum - yes there were a lot of lies in the leave aide, but there was also plenty if information available debunking these lies. A second referendum is not going to suddenly give people he ability of critical thinking.

Re the trade deficit with the EU (totally made up numbers if illustration) Say we export 10% to the EU, and import 90%. The EU is much much bigger than us so that 90% we import is less than 10% of their exports - not a great bargaining position (in real numbers, the amount of export the EU would lose is negligible to them)