remainers, do you have any concerns with immigration? genuine question

[Grassgreendashhabi]

I was wondering without labelling or being accused of xenophobic etc. If remainers have issues with the uncontrollable immigration.

I am a leaver but disgusted by the acts of some people with their hatred views,

Do you see immigration as 100% ok or do you think that there is an issue for reform to our immigration.

I'm asking a genuine question, not looking for statistics etc just your personal views

My family are mostly remain but do think that immigration needs more control,

By continuing the Leavers vs Remainers narrative, you continue the circle.

The referendum made extraordinarily visible the divide in this country.

No amount of 'net giver' rhetoric will make a blind but of difference - they may indeed be net contributors, but who sees the results?
Not the people at the bottom who are seeing their average wage reduce & house prices/rental prices increase widely out of proportion.

The people at the bottom are getting poorer, the people at the top are getting richer - at a local & visible level.

Seriously, read the article about Boston, and stop banging on about net contributors.

mango - I think I am also concerned that this divide will get worse not better. I think the inequality in our society is something we urgently need to address. I disagree that turning off immigration will fix it.

I voted Remain.

I disagree that immigration is always a good thing. Nothing is ever always a good thing. It has good point, and it certainly has bad points.

Sadly, the two campaigns were very divisive and a proper discussion never had a chance.

I thought the article was otherwise very positive?

Really?!

It was positive how?

Positive?:
Those at the very bottom see their wages grow more slowly....turbocharged in sectors or places where there have been major inflows.

Positive?:
richer local people have done very well - but the squeeze on the poorer end is more extreme.

Positive?:
Boston has always been a low-pay town. But it is now an exceptionally low-paid place.
The average hourly wagee* nationally is £13.33. Across the East Midlands, it is £12.26. In Boston, it is £9.13. On a weekly basis, full-time earnings are more than £100 a week less than the national average.

Positive?:
also a problem with local housing. Because some workers come temporarily, they do not mind housing themselves poorly for a spell.
So 10 single workers may each pay £60 a week to share what was a three-bedroom house, netting the landlords £600 a week. That means a gross rental income from the house of perhaps £30,000 a year.
That is much more than local families can afford for those houses - and the housing supply has simply not kept up with demand.
Local rents in Boston are actually much higher than in Nottingham despite wages being lower. This is a major problem within the town and has become a major cause of frustration. People living next door to these multiple-occupied homes are also not happy.
Walking around Boston, it's also evident that it's a young place - people attracted by hard agricultural work will tend not to be older. But immigrants tend to be young anyway.

I must have been reading a different article to you if you took a positive feeling from it!

Yes - to we dont need the EU to fix this we need decent government and Nu-Labour and Tories have not been up to it.

Massive problem with tax dodgers both individuals and coporates

Indeed there is thought to be 120 billion tax evasion and avoidance!

No one has mentioned turning off immigration

It's no control over EU immigration that people on here are concerned about

What if numbers showed say in Lambeth there were 1000 EU workers that has settled and half had children, half had one child the other two or three. So how many primary school places do you provide, schools are over subscribed so you build another school but then find in the next year numbers have dropped and those coming into the country have moved to another area in the country where rents are low and there is lots of low skilled position but they don't have the extra schools haven't had extra money as it was not known how many people would move into the area

Then of course there other public services people use

That is very very low numbers but it just simply shows how unplanned immigration is so hard to manage regardless of cuts

Looking at the referendum results by counting area, I think it's interesting that many of the leave areas are those where fear of immigration was a factor in people's voting, but immigration isn't necessarily actually a fact of life or is not something much of the local population experiences on a daily basis.

If you look at the places which voted remain, most of those (in England and Wales) have more mixed communities. E.g. the city of Leicester versus the more rural communities of Leicestershire.

If you look at those areas though wowfudge, but not through the prism of immigration fear, a very different picture emerges.

Years of being taken for granted, let down & ignored.

Another interesting article:

www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/

Interesting Link Mango Thanks

This was pertinent,

"here is also a problem with local housing. Because some workers come temporarily, they do not mind housing themselves poorly for a spell.

So 10 single workers may each pay £60 a week to share what was a three-bedroom house, netting the landlords £600 a week. That means a gross rental income from the house of perhaps £30,000 a year."

We have many noise/smoke/neigbours in summer issues on MN, I wonder if anyone has lived in terraced housing, if so you will know how thin walls are and it can be cheek by jowl living.

Imagine a house supposed to have one family/couple in it, now has a revolving door of high numbers of migrants with no intention of putting roots down living in it. Therefore there is no incentive to fit in, to be socially minded etc, its more like someone said - a hotel existence than creating a home.
Great for the workers, and the landlords making money out of slums, but not so for the neighbours.

Great for the workers, and the landlords making money out of slums, but not so for the neighbours.

And dont forget the main problem -employers!

I want to be able to work abroad. I have done. I don't want to feel constrained like I am in some sort of prison, with walls. Stopping immigrants coming here also prevents flow the other way. Sure you can get visas possibly, but it was so much easier. My DH works often in Europe. He goes usually once a week / fortnight. To him it's like working in Leicester when you live in Nottingham. My world seems to have got so much more constrained and my passport is worth less.

Yes there is difficulty with lots of immigration, but there is also difficulty with the flow of people from north to south. Do we suggest sheffielders should not move south for work?

I object to immigration without a job though.

rain those arguements are often used against student housing. They too don't fit in with the community, pack lots into a house....

Arguments

I must have been reading a different article to you if you took a positive feeling from it!

perhaps Bumble is part of the wealthier group who tend to reap the benefits of immigration?

Great for the workers, and the landlords making money out of slums, but not so for the neighbours

the owners of property and business who make money out of 'people farming' are bound to be the ones who profit from a larger group of people from whom they can extract profit

Is their no HMO legislation in England? (Genuine question). 10 people sharing a 3 bedroom rented house in Scotland would be illegal. If it's illegal why are the Local Authority not prosecuting landlords?

Mango I am actually from one of those very areas, though I no longer live there. The area in question has had a lot of investment during our EU membership. It has been hit by heavy and manufacturing industry all but disappearing there. It has its good and bad parts, but is a hell of a lot better than it was in the 1970s and early 1980s.

these bits:

The town is booming, despite having absorbed a huge rise in the number of potential workers in a relatively short time. These workers have also enabled an enormous change in the local economy to take place with relative ease and remarkably quickly

But Mr Gleeson says the local economy has diversified and now creates work all year round, which means they can sustain a lot more jobs - and so need a lot more permanent residents.

Boston has been transformed by the expansion of the European Union to the east.

The pretty little town is energetic and bustling, but is visibly not the same place as it was. A UKIP councillor Viven Edge, told us that Boston had lost some of its "Lincolnshireness".

I dont disagree that the lack of affordable housing and low wages are really serious issues. I am just trying to offer an alternative view as to solutions. I dont think "controlling immigration" is what we need, I think we need better rights for employees and better provision of affordable housing.

and glass i'm trying to discuss an issue in a polite fashion, if you could refrain from making personal remarks it would be appreciated.

If it's illegal why are the Local Authority not prosecuting landlords?

I am assuming due to cuts not enough enforcement officers, which goes same for unpaid NHS costs etc. Tories hate regulation as well so these type of posts probably under pressure.

So not an immigration problem then. Lack of investment which could benefit everyone.

Everyone has benefit bashing stories What's your benefit bashing story then?

I dont think "controlling immigration" is what we need, I think we need better rights for employees and better provision of affordable housing.

Better rights for employees:
there is minimum wage, but in high EU immigrant areas a young economic migrant can afford to work for that amount.
The young EU migrant in one of these crowded houses can easily live & save on that amount (an amount that is double that of their country of origin).
By contrast, someone with a family & home to run cannot.

Better provision of affordable housing:
How many to build?
How many to provide?
With immigration uncontrolled, it is difficult to plan for these things.

I don't have an issue with immigration. Clearly there are some challenges, but overall, I think there is a net benefit to the country as a whole.

I think it's interesting that concerns about immigration are often a lot higher in areas with relatively low immigration. I live in an area with high levels of immigration - the children at dd's primary school speak 36 different mother tongues between them. I love the diversity and cultural richness that this brings. Also, the children who come from immigrant families tend to have a very good work ethic and high levels of educational attainment, and I welcome those traits within dd's peer group.

There is a lot of pressure on secondary school places in my area, but that's not because of immigration in my view. It's because one of the big secondary schools is failing and nobody wants to go there.

I think there are massive issues with chronic under-investment, and I think many working class communities have suffered as a result of this. I think it's way too simplistic to draw a direct causal link between this and immigration, and the problems are much deeper rooted. It's not popular to talk about it, but we do have a culture of under-achievement in some communities and we really need to address this. There is a serious skills deficit that needs to be tackled, and there is also a poverty of aspiration in some communities that leaves many young people without any belief in themselves or hope for the future. Telling them that it's all because of immigration is actually disempowering because it leaves them feeling utterly helpless and abandoned.

Gordon Brown did introduce an immigration impact fund that was intended to ease the pressure on public services where there had been a sudden, unexpected influx of migrants. This was funded by a part of the visa fee paid by non-EU immigrants. Sadly, the Tories decided to scrap it.

What we really need is greater investment in our own young people, but I don't see it happening in the immediate future. I'd be very happy to pay higher taxes in order to improve the life chances of the poorest in our society. Many immigrants would no doubt be happy to contribute too.

head
I object to immigration without a job though
precisely - this is the problem hence the call for CONTROLLED immigration however that is achieved - in that way the infrastructure is better able to cope

I don't have a problem with immigration, but I live in a city that voted remain (as I did). I agree with the PP who pointed out the problem is not immigration but lack of investment due to austerity measures. Leaving the EU is only going to make the problem worse, much worse.