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Brexit

Any other Remainers think this petition/another referendum is not the way forward?

65 replies

Meggymoodle · 27/06/2016 07:47

Apologies if a thread has already been started on this - feel free to ignore this one!

I was an ardent remainer. I spent Friday morning crying every time I thought about my children's futures. However, this petition that has been signed by so many I think is wrong.

  1. We are a democratic nation - the leave side "won". Apparently, many people have regrets now, well actually that's too late.
  1. Another referendum would be massively unsettling and I think would cause civil unrest led by the far-right of the leave side (no I am NOT saying that all leavers are xenophobes and racists but there is an element that are).
  1. How utterly weak would we appear on the global stage particularly in Europe? Even if we ran another referendum and voted to stay, the EU would laugh us out. Our deals would be nowhere near what they are now.

I think unfortunately, we have made our bed and now we have to lie in it. The only way forward is to prepare ourselves for a rocky ride and get on with it.

My credentials, for what it's worth - I studied the EU for 4 years at degree level and European politics at Masters levels. I studied in France for a year funded by the EU. I am at the very core European and I am deeply saddened by the result, but I really believe we have to move forward.

OP posts:
BreakingDad77 · 27/06/2016 10:03

1. We are a democratic nation - the leave side "won". Apparently, many people have regrets now, well actually that's too late

-If labour won the general election and then the second day said we are going to privatize the NHS, then that action would be needed.

2. Another referendum would be massively unsettling

-I would not call it a referendum, I would call it validation of the Leave deal.

3. How utterly weak would we appear on the global stage particularly in Europe?

  • not really as this has happened before - its an EU thing..

A second ref or libdem annulment is the way forward as Leave have bottled article 50, and done U-turns on immigration and the golden 350.

Lottielou7 · 27/06/2016 10:38

I agree that it would make the UK look bad but I think we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I'm really worried that there is going to be rioting whatever happens.

Btw, I have joined the Lib Dems after supporting Laboour my entire voting life.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 27/06/2016 11:01

No, I don't feel there's any point in a second referendum now, they should have put a minimum "% of eligible voters" or similar clause in the first one.

I do feel there's a case for putting the hypothetical exit plan up for a referendum if/when it arrives. We've only been offered a chance to reject A, not whether to accept B (or C, or....)

SeaEagleFeather · 27/06/2016 11:35

that would extend the process forever, Boulevard

don't like Plan B? another referendum after more weeks. That rejected? another one ... in more weeks.

If the electorate is told honestly of the major points of the exit plan and the likely consequences, I don't think they are going to like any plan at all.

I'd -like- another referendum if it could come up with a overwhelming -clear- victory; but that's unlikely to happen. I don't see the last one as all that valid tbh, certainly not very democratic, because the Leave campaign told more whopping lies and concealed more facts than the Remain one and that means the result wasn't fair and free.

But I think we're stuck now. Wishes for anything else are just that, wishes.

BreakingDad77 · 27/06/2016 11:39

We could get the mad situation where leavers end up getting an EEA type deal with no change in immigration and no veto and no rebate.

BarmySmarmy · 27/06/2016 11:56

The petition cannot act as anything other than a lobbying tool. The terms of the referendum cannot be adjusted retrospectively!
But it sends a message to Gvt about the country being divided by such a tiny margin.
The referendum is not in itself legally binding anyway. Gvt are as able to say 'actually, no' just as Farsge said 'actually, not really ' about the £350m

SeaEagleFeather · 27/06/2016 12:57

We could get the mad situation where leavers end up getting an EEA type deal with no change in immigration and no veto and no rebate.

I kind of wonder if this will be the long term result, yes

P1nkP0ppy · 27/06/2016 13:03

The petition's got tens of thousands of ridiculous, hoax signatures from people claiming to live in the Vatican, the Atlantic and St Helena amongst others so I hardly think it's valid.

odapanda · 27/06/2016 13:05

Whilst a new referendum might not be "the way forward", at least it is not the way backwards into the Nineties (or earlier).
We don't have to "beg to be taken back" now, we are still full members of the EU, nothing new is implemented, no one can force UK into Euro market... for now, until the article 50 is triggered. Later all will depend on trade negotiations, which look rather gloom after UK failed to achieve much in previous negotiations with the EU.

For those of you who doesn't want to challenge the outcome as “it’s democracy in action” - it is, but DEMOCRACY ENDS WHEN PEOPLE DON'T HAVE LEGITIMATE WAYS TO CHALLENGE DECISIONS, NOT WHEN PEOPLE WORK ON WAYS TO CHANGE THEM. You are able to vote differently in next general elections after discovering that a politician was blatantly lying, but not so in this case. In such a serious, world reshaping and irreversible matter, isn't it reasonable to double check voters’ wishes? Or do you think that democracy will stop working in the second referendum?

"People have spoken" - yes, and they have been indeed heard this time, which is good. The question many now ask is if it indeed was the EU they were voting against, or domestic UK politicians who never listened to them?

“It will mean endless referendums” or even “you accept democracy only if it suits you” - the second referendum is needed not because the result is "right" or "wrong", or doesn't suit someone, but because it was so ill thought about. No next steps were ever considered even by leave campaign leaders, not mentioning voters. By the time the new referendum takes place, some of the consequences (both negative and positive) will be seen, a plan of separation from the EU should be created, so people much less likely will be voting just for a fairy tale. It is generally accepted that many people are able to learn after just one serious mistake, so both voters and politicians would act more responsible.

Civil unrest because of far-right groups being angry - As we could have learned from History, a certain, and bigger, unrest will happen if no one dares to tell that extreme nationalism is not a card to play any more.

"We will look weak if we back up now" - well, it's a difficult choice between looking weak and looking stupid. More seriously, it would be difficult to work with the EU again, but most probably less difficult then trying to negotiate good trade deals with angry EU leaders now.

"If struggle means just no TV, it's a joke" - nowadays the wast majority of people, unfortunately, will sacrifice many more important things before a TV: environment, culture, education and, funnily enough, medicine. So the situation with no TV also means lack of all of the above.

GingerIvy · 27/06/2016 17:42

The EU has already started making changes. www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=MOTION&reference=B8-2016-0838&format=XML&language=EN&utm_content=buffer88dac&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

And Richard Branson is now putting his oar in on the petition. Seriously, I am getting so bloody sick of people demanding a revote or new referendum or the LibDems with their No Brexit ticket. Vote is done, people need to accept and start working together now. I didn't want conservatives to win last GE, but I moved on and dealt with it. I didn't vote Leave, but I recognise that we need to move on to getting the Brexit done now.

Lottielou7 · 27/06/2016 17:45

But the difference is that the term of a government is no more than 5 years. This is forever! It's way too important to get wrong.

DiggersRest · 27/06/2016 17:49

oda absolutely well said. I can't fathom why remainers are just saying ok well our future's fucked but it's ok because it was voted in a referendum so let's not challenge it.

noblegiraffe · 27/06/2016 18:52

If it had been a fair vote, it would be much easier to accept and move on.

But as it is this vote, which has totally screwed the country, was based on lies which are becoming increasingly apparent, and the people responsible for those lies are not taking responsibility. Where the hell was Johnson in the Commons this afternoon? Cameron is answering 'will the NHS be getting £350 million or not?' And Johnson, whose bus it was on is off elsewhere.

It's a fucking disgrace and should not be accepted.
Civil servants should be getting on with stuff behind the scenes as best they can, but Johnson and Gove should be held to account, and put directly in charge of 'publicly sorting this shit out' (before potentially becoming PM).

Brokenbiscuit · 27/06/2016 19:38

I will not however, just shut up and stop pointing out that Emperors Gove, Farage and Johnson are damn well naked.

Quite.

GingerIvy · 28/06/2016 08:43

I doubt very much that Cameron wanted Johnson at the meeting. He's a slightly loose cannon IMO and the last thing Cameron would want at this point is another debate or to have to hash out this and that with Johnson. Much more safe to simply answer what he can, defer what he cannot to the next government, and step back. I don't really like Cameron, but grudgingly he handled it fairly well.

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