Can we all please just grow the fuck up?

[Peppatina]

It's all getting a tad hysterical, no?

From the same people who are just yesterday calling for calm today whatever the result I'm now getting the most vile diatribe.

To hear them tell it over half those that voted are:

A) Poor or in shit jobs
B) Racists
C) Stupid and because they are less educated.
D) Old fogeys fucking up the country for the young'uns.

Is it that bloody hard to accept there were good reasons to vote EITHER way depending on your own circumstances.

The people who voted opposite to you aren't stupid because they came to a different conclusion than you did.

Honestly it's like the G.E all over again. Hatred and bile being spouted by people who are supposedly liberal and open minded but have no problem demonising half of the population and sneering at the less educated working class.

And I voted labour last election but was shocked by the reaction from my fellow losers.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Merry - the minimum wage working full time is about -£11,000 ish a year - not sure much tax being contributed (that is also roughly tax free earnings limit) . Working tax credits are paid to minimum wage earners - plus housing benefit . Can't expensive for taxpayers to subside companies paying their employees minimum wage. Employers don't need to increase wages while there is an oversupply of low paid workers.

[merrymouse]

There is an over supply of unskilled workers even without the EU so no real need to increase wages.

Many EU immigrants are very highly skilled and earning far more than the minimum wage.

[merrymouse]

Plus businesses are perfectly capable of relocating to the EU and selling goods from the EU to the UK. We don't live in a bubble.

Meanwhile Daniel Hannan is suggesting that freedom of movement for workers is a likely outcome of negotiations.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Simply not the case merry employers do not have to offer more than zero hours and no perks.

Tuner is an oversupply because of freedom of movement. We do not have high unemployment - we do not have under supply of new jobs. We have too many people willing to work for zero hours contracts because it is many times wages in their home countries.

Disclaimer - Obviously there are better
Employers out there that value staff and invest; train and provide more than minimums.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

The right to work in a country is different to the right to live; being entire family; claim benefits etc

Germany and UK (Government have both attempted to obtain this previously and were unable to secure it with Commission as it is against spirit of treaties and open to EU Jidge overthrowing. Intractable.

Hopefully commission may begin to realise their adherence to spirit of treaties may lead to compete downfall and listen.
Crucial differences between right to work and relight of freedom of movement.

[merrymouse]

Again, there is an over supply of unskilled indigenous people before you include people from the EU and you are assuming that all immigrants from the EU are doing minimum wage jobs. That is not the case.

You are also assuming that, when it comes to minimum wage jobs, businesses couldn't simply move the jobs to follow the people and that there is no trade competition with countries who pay their workers less.

There are no clear plans at all, but two clear proposals from leavers are that we open ourselves up to trade with countries who pay far lower wages than in the EU, and that we allow free movement of workers in the EU. Either way, we will have to take into account the reality that the UK labour market faces global competition when it comes to wages, and that most UK immigrants come from outside the EU.

There is no magic bullet where UK workers can turn back the clock, but with their vague promises this is what the Leave campaign has sold.

[smallfox1980]

"The right to work in a country is different to the right to live; being entire family; claim benefits etc"

Why should someone who works and pay taxes in this country not have the right to have their family here? Why should they not be allowed to claim in work benefits when they are working and out of work benefits if they have worked here?

Our own British workers in the EU get to take their families, they get to claim in work benefits and out of work ones when they are not there. British pensioners get to use the Spanish health services, it has been well documented that they "benefit" from living in Spain.

EU immigrants are under represented on the out of work benefits counts anyway.

Your argument is effectively: " We want you here to work, we don't want you to get comfortable because once we decide your no longer of use we want you to go home" and that isn't how it works.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Smallfox: So what do you think of extending reciprocal free movement of people to countries outside the EU?

We have some very poor countries in EU - Romania; Bulgaria and the soon to join Albania etc.

We could have reciprocal free movement with other countries. Are you happy for further countries to have freedom of movement to the UK - opportunities for us to go and work in Brazil and Mexico maybe? If not, why not?

We have lots of countries that are net recpients rather than net contributors so why would poor countries be a problem, in your opinion.

It isn't a problem not being in a treaty yet, as we weren't in a treaty with all the East European countries when we joined - they've all been added as we've gone alone.

The opportunites are out there for further trade agreements that include freedom of movement. I assume you would be happy? If not, why ?

[smallfox1980]

I have a feeling your building a strawman argument here, of course we wouldn't offer Brazil and Mexico free movement as part of a deal, just as they wouldn't offer us it, mainly as neither country is in Europe.

Freedom of movement helps in European business because our economies are so integrated. I have no problem of countries being net recipients rather than net contributors because I think that helping other countries to improve their economies and infrastructure will benefit all of the european economies in the end. Our net contribution is an extremely small part of our government spending but the net benefits of membership are far higher. Put it this way, it only takes a 0.6% change in GDP to wipe out our net contribution from the tax take.

Why are you so fixated on immigration? Do you believe the rhetoric about schools and hospitals etc? Btw Daniel Hannan came out today and said that immigration probably wouldn't be cut by leaving the EU.

[smallfox1980]

Just to put it into perspective, our entire public spending in 2013-2014 was £358.1 bn, our net contribution to the EU is about £8 billion.
This means that its 0.2% of all public spending,

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

I don't think it should be a right to take up jobs in other countries. If they needed me, then yes, but not my "right".

I don't think it is okay for me to go to Romania and take a job off a local person just because it was my "right". I would not go just to clean toilets - probably the job should go to the local community.

The poorer people in our communities have been the ones most affected by that "right" being taken up from Eastern Europe. People that are usually far more educated than them competing for work and willing to work at the minimum wage.

I don't think that makes for a happy society. It works where economies are equal - but clearly doesn't work when we are paying much larger wages than they'd earn in their home economies.

Would you take a job off an acadmeically low achieving person in Romania?

We have highly educated EU citizens doing menial jobs here and taking them of our poorest. (Reason clearly being because they make much more money here - does that sit comfortably with you - would you do it?) Do you really think it's fair to our poorest? Or do you only worry about people's rights from other EU countries?

More settled communities of people working - rather than people just arriving working for a year etc.

It's very nice lots of people having the "right" to come and work here - like a right of passage - but not at the expense of local communities.

[smallfox1980]

But the LSE proved that unemployment amongst British nationals isn't caused by immigration.

Even the Bank of England proved that only the bottom 5% of earners are effected by a 10% increase in immigration with a 0.9% fall in pay.

You can dress up your views as caring for the poor all you like, but it is easy to see through.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

My reason for mentioning immigration was your earlier post re Hannan's comment - then you mentioned Hannan's comment again just now....

My query about freedom of movement is not straw man. Genuine question because no other trade deals require explicit "right to live somewhere".

What is your reason for not extending right of freedom of movement to other trade deals?

ASEAN describes itself as "not as ambitous as EU rights re living" and describes itself as "freer movement" - and lots of info on problems it can bring to poor as well as advantages for business.

"The approach embodied in the AEC is different from the notion of free labor flows understood from common practice in Europe or the Caribbean Community (CARICOM). Instead of aiming for the unrestricted "free" flow of skilled labor, the AEC seeks to facilitate a "freer" flow, primarily through the implementation of Mutual Recognition Agreements (MRAs) that establish qualification frameworks and facilitate temporary visa issuance for individual occupations.

www.migrationpolicy.org/research/freer-flow-skilled-labour-within-asean-aspirations-opportunities-and-challenges-2015

Why would you not think something reciprocal for further trade deals from other countries around the world would be beneficial. The movement of people brings tax revenue you mentioned. Why not more?

Businesses would like it.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

There are endless articles looking at wage depression. The leader of the Remain Campaign - Lord Rose - was smuggled off the scene when he blundered that of course wages would go up if we left EU, but he said that would be a bad thing. Liability he was.

"A study from UCL found that immigration depresses wages below the 20th percentile of the wage distribution, but leads to slight wage increases in the upper part of the wage distribution. Each 1% increase in the share of migrants in the UK-born working age population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers"
blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/labour-should-not-be-the-champion-of-eu-free-movement/

I'll think you'll find it is actually the oversupply that is the problem - it is also more than wages - the employer does not have to offer anything more than the bare minimum (no perks etc) as there is always someone else willing to work for the minimum wage with no perks.

But I'd like to know why you wouldn't extend free movement of labour beyond EU. Clearly EU is a political union that has gone far beyond the remit of a trading areas. Other trade deals don't require such a level of integration.

I'm not suggesting economic union as EU does - just the free movement of people from around the world as I mentioned in my post above.

Business would like it. Surely you must think it is a good idea? I can't see the reason why you wouldn't.

We're not in the Euro. We only really wish to access the trade deal element of the EU - the right of free movement was made part of the deal by being in a treaty on ever closer integration.

If other trade deals round the world insisted on freedom of movement - why would you not want that?

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

What do you mean rhetoric about schools and houses?

Do you mean we could have unlimited immigration from around the world and receiprocal free movement then ?

We can always just build more hospitals and infracture for transient and migrant workers from anywhere? Their tax receipts would build all the new hospitals etc.

Is it not discriminatory against people from outside the EU?

GIving freedom of movement to 500m people in EU isn't a problem, but extending that to other trade agreements may be a problem for you?

Rember a trade agreement doesn't require monetary or political unity, you know just a proper old fashioned trade agreement that other places have. Can't see why you don't wish for that.

[smallfox1980]

I don't believe the rhetoric on schools and hospitals.

87% of primary school children get their first choice place, 80% of secondary. In the last few years there have been no children not offered a place by their local authority. Health care? Well the healthy migrant effect usually means that waiting times fall, the areas that saw a fall in their quaity of service were areas of high economic deprevation, and then only between 2004 and 2008. If you want the links to this I'll put them.

For houses , that is down to the lack of building of public housing as well as the land banking by private building firms, the largest four of whom are currently sitting on 615,000 planing permission approved housing sites, but not building on them.

Why wouldn't I offer it to the world? Because we aren't in an economic union with the rest of the world, also they can migrate here, in fact they make up a larger slice of the net migration figures than the EU migrants do.

I wonder why you have such a problem with EU immigration, it makes up 4% of the population, they claim less out of work benefits than is proportional to their size of the workforce, they are net tax contributors, they don't cause unemployment for British nationals and have a marginal effect on pay for the very lowest paid.

Like many others I think you're going to be disappointed with the post brexit settlement.

[merrymouse]

We only really wish to access the trade deal element of the EU

And practically, how is that going to work out do you think?

[smallfox1980]

Well Boris set it out today what he wants... he won't get it in negotiation. Eea style membership here we come.

[Asprilla11]

Please read this.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2671677-EU-Referendum-Racists-and-Xenophobes?