So this guy spent weeks reading and fact checking everything re Brexit

[nearlyhellokitty]

medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-brexit-the-conclusion-c1f56ba4cb70#.tp8mvaye4: Basically he expected to find equivalent bullshit but discovered that "Remain appear to be telling the truth, Leave don’t." if you don't believe me look through his stuff.

"I’ve now spent the last three weeks fact-checking every detail on Brexit that I possibly could.

I’ve read 90-page government reports on my way to a wedding. I’ve hacked through academic analyses of the EU when I really should have been promoting my Virtual Reality game. I’ve treated myself to a fun Google search for the accounts of pro-Remain activists to check that they’re not biased. And so on.

At every single turn, I found that the Leave campaign’s arguments were founded on lies. Sorry, it’s as simple as that. I wish it wasn’t.
They lie about how much money we spend on the EU. I’d love to say “they’re misinformed”, or “they exaggerate”, but they don’t. They lie. Outright.

They lie about the business case for Leave. I still have found absolutely no support whatsoever for the figures that are confidently quoted here.
They lie about the state of democracy in the EU. The more I investigate the EU, the more I find out it’s fairer and better set up than the UK’s government. Just today I discovered that the European Commission’s role in legislation is actually far more balanced than I thought.
And the Leave campaign lie a lot more. I haven’t had time to post all the mini-fact-checks I’ve found. As just one example, the Vote Leave website claims

Because of free movement laws, the UK cannot test every EU doctor operating in the UK for whether they can speak English

As proof, they link to an article in the Guardian about a horrible accident thanks to a doctor not understanding English. In that article, it explicitly states:

The GMC, which registers doctors and licenses them to work, has been able to check EU medics’ English since last summer…

In other words, Leave’s statement is absolutely untrue, and that’s proved by an article they themselves use as “proof” of their untrue statement.
I haven’t had time to fact-check every single Leave claim, and some, like the claim that leaving “will make Britain Great again”, aren’t possible to fact-check.

But every single Leave claim I’ve checked has turned out not to be exaggeration, not to be well-meaning misunderstanding, but to be obviously false.

Remain’s campaign has been criticised for being dull, being negative, and being led by people who are thoroughly disliked.

All of those claims are entirely reasonable. Personally I intensely dislike both Cameron and Osborne. I’m about as much of a fan of the current UK government as I am of bowel cancer.

But every claim of theirs I’ve checked — even the ones that had pro-Remain friends shouting about how over the top and ridiculous they were has turned out to be more or less sound."

And at the same time Leave appear to be pushpolling - blogs.channel4.com/michael-crick-on-politics/referendum-pushpolling-influence-result/5328

An undercover investigation by Channel 4 News tonight reveals evidence of surveys made from a secretive call centre that appear to be feeding negative messages stated as fact to voters – a practice experts say appears to be “push polling”.

Documents and secretly filmed footage obtained by this programme show a London-based company has been calling voters claiming to be conducting an “independent survey”.

Following up a source who initially approached news outlet The Canary, we went undercover – to find out what the firm were up to.

Voters are asked a series of questions including how they intend to vote on Thursday. Scripts to be read over the phone by callers and obtained by Channel 4 News show a series of assertions presented to voters as fact.

In one question, voters are apparently asked to grade issues by importance on a scale of one to five, and are then given a series of one or two word concerns, including “economy”, “employment” and “immigration”.

Among the options, the script to be read by the callers then states as fact: “The EU costs Britain £350 million per week, how important is the cost of the EU?”.

The claim is hugely controversial, and has been branded as both misleading and patently untrue for ignoring the rebate back to Britain and EU money pumped back into the UK.

Documents and undercover research by the Channel 4 News investigations team show call centre workers were ordered to say the poll was “for research” and “not biased”.

that's absolutely outrageous hellokitty...

I have a bad feeling that the result will be challenged, whatever it is

Here's the fact check on getting 10 X back:
medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0#.3ft98cn8c

"The Remain campaign’s overselling it somewhat by presenting the numbers as solid fact. It’s a best-guess.
Nonetheless, after all that digging I think it’s a pretty solid one."

A reformed Europe is a lie. There is going to be no reformed Europe. it's ever closer union. And more power to the EU and away from individual countries.

I think you haven't been listening to what Tusk and others have been saying in recent weeks Vivienne.

Also unclear to me as to what you mean by a reformed Europe in this case?
Plus the UK will always have a veto on major changes to the Treaties etc.

And there really have been so many reforms in the past years. It would be a lie to say that there haven't been any.

David Cameron is the one who keeps talking about a reformed Europe. He's the expert. What does he mean by a reformed Europe. It's pie in the sky. It was meant to be a trading agreement not a European superstate with it's own army and parliament making laws. We've been sold a big fat lie.

I have a bad feeling that the result will be challenged, whatever it is

Oh bloody 'ell, I hope not. That would really do wonders for the mood and cohesion of the country.

Mind you, the stage is already being set. Seen a fair few posts trying to suggest it will be a fix, the result will be ignored, votes will be altered so use a pen...

Leaving would mean we could vote out any parliamentarian whose policies we disagreed with.

At the moment we are at the mercy of faceless numpties, we have no say, no control - are dragged down by countries like Greece who are in a mess. Turkey is joining soon, who else, anyone? - to increase the power and money of the faceless bureaucrats.

A belated 1984 scenario.

and sorry to go back to the Trump comparison (I follow US politics a lot), but it's so clearly the same psychological mechanism.

Trump has been caught flat-out LYING many, many times, completely outrageous, offensive lies. And he does it on purpose too. He knows that by the time he's challenged on his lies, it's too late, they've already made their impact.

It works because they're well-chosen lies that confirm people's pre-existing prejudices. It's what someone else said earlier, people tend to first have a belief, and then they cherry-pick the fact to support them. So when Trump says that thousands of "Arabs" in New Jersay cheered when the Twin Towers collapsed, it's a complete fabrication, but people already afraid of Muslim Americans will still use it as further proof to reinforce their prejudice.

It's the same strategy used by Leave about the £350 million, or Turkey. They know it's not even remotely true, but they don't care. It doesn't matter if they're proven wrong, the point was to make the lie the centre of the conversation.

It's fucking terrifying, frankly. Because it works.

I think you're mixing up a few things Vivienne.

There's been many reforms over the years to make the EU more transparent and accountable. Cameron got agreement for some reforms earlier this year, like the emergency break etc. We'll see how they get fleshed out.

The Parliament was always part of the deal - and rightly so since it's the only directly elected body by us, otherwise it's taken care of by our governments mostly within the Council.

The army thing is massively misleading. There have been joint exercises and there will continue to be for example because the Dutch would like to get experience on tanks or something and they didn't have some or similar. But the "EU Army"is not going to happen - I was pretty horrified by the title for that in the Mumsnet EU referendum talk page, talk about scaremongering.

This is shocking

MissMargie you just repeated exactly another lie! That Turkey is going to join soon! That is total bull. I'm sorry. They closed one chapter out of 35, but are currently going backwards. Plus Cyprus etc would veto.

It is also a lie that we have no control!!! (and that the bureaucrats have no faces ;-)) The UK government gets 97% ish of its positions. The European Parliament has a lot of power..

It's amazing how exactly what we are talking about is being confirmed in front of us on this thread.

hellokitty lies on both sides then as that figure isn't correct either.

We are huge net contributors to the EU. You clearly like that. I don't!

This is a more humorous version: www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/10-best-euro-myths-from-custard-creams-to-condoms?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

rooner I like the fact that our investment means many other benefts, ending up far more valuable than the original investment. if this wasn't the case we would have left years ago.

And actually that 10X is not a lie in the same way. I don't know how you don't see that. It is based on a summary of the figures, which could be challenged, maybe revised up or down, but is not a lie. the "350 a week going to the NHS" on Boris' bus is an actual lie.

In the end it's down to one thing. Do we want our own parliament or do we want to be ruled by an EU parliament that we can't get rid of and who we have to obey. That's why I'm voting leave. It's up to other people what they want. If they're happy to be ruled by the EU then they should vote remain.

Vivienne - we vote for the European Parliament every 5 years. Last election was in May 2014.

But the "EU Army"is not going to happen - I was pretty horrified by the title for that in the Mumsnet EU referendum talk page, talk about scaremongering. What then did you make of Merkel's very recent comments on increasing the German defence budget because the US cannot be relied on for defence? I have heard that how this could play out is that the EU will extend the competencies to defence, which means it moves to QMV from us having a veto, and we will be looking at an EU set up similar to NATO en route to a set of Armed Forces stood up by the EU.

Before you say tin hat, that's from a defence planner who has worked in both the EU and NATO.

Gosh Vivienne those sneaky bureaucrats and their disgusting introduction of:

Equal pay and non-discrimination for women and the disabled
Ensuring people get paid leave, maternity rights and statutory breaks while at work
Breaking the monopoly of telecoms companies to drive down the costs of broadband, phones and mobile use abroad
Consumer protection laws and food labelling
Reduction in air pollution and cleaner beaches and rivers.

Appalling. Vote out immediately.

The UK voted for a trading agreement. Not a poltical union. I don't want a political union so I'm voting leave. Everything else is just facts and figures. True or false. What other country gives away it's democratic rights in exchange for a trade agreement. No thanks.

Didn;t see your post. Tell that to the folk on zero hour contracts. What has the EU done for them. zilch.

Viviene - all countries give away some rights for trading - See the WTO.

scaryteacher the title in the mumsnet page said that we'd see our kids being conscripted - that's what I was horrified about.

We have a veto on moving anything like that to QMV - that has to be a Treaty change. So it's not something that just 'happens' like that.