Please read this if you would like your children to attend uni in the UK.

[Rikkitikkitemper]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/leaders-of-100-top-uk-universities-warn-of-brexit-risk-to-global-standing-a7092516.html

Yep I agree with those cynical about the views of academics. I think as usual it's all about the money. Most unis just want as many students as possible, they don't really care about the quality of teaching/value for money etc, if they did they'd charge tuition fees according to the actual costs of the course not the maximum £9000 across the board. And of course the unis don't give a toss about the EU graduates who fuck off leaving their student loans unpaid because it is British taxpayers who pick up the bill not them.

Why anyone would trust the word of academics is beyond me. Having witnessed petty arguments over whose name came first on an academic paper was enough to make me finish my PHD as quickly as possible to escape such an insular, childish environment. The rivalry between individual academics even working in the same lab was ridiculous.

I work at a uni, and management here is extremely worried, and are warning about redundancies.
Approximately 10% of the students are from the EU. Why would they study in the UK if they have to pay international rates (about double EU rates) and don't qualify for the government loan? A great many of the academics are from the EU. All the hassle with applying for visas, plus the sense that the UK is no longer EU friendly, will put many off. UK universities will also lose a large amount of research funding, financed by the EU, and will find it much more difficult to co-operate in research with EU universities. So yes, standards will go down, and the higher education sector of the economy will bring in less money to the UK.

Can I just clarify?

Academics are overwhelmingly against Brexit because of the huge damage it will do to British higher education.

The cabal of Brexit posters who spam every single referendum thread on here have now decided that academics are untrustworthy money grabbers who don't care about teaching.

Better stop sending our kids to university then...

"I work at a uni, and management here is extremely worried, and are warning about redundancies"
same at my university in london.

Most unis just want as many students as possible, they don't really care about the quality of teaching/value for money etc, if they did they'd charge tuition fees according to the actual costs of the course not the maximum £9000 across the board.
What utter tosh.

Could you please back this up with hard evidence? The student experience is the one big thing that drives all our work streams at the University.

The cabal of Brexit posters who spam every single referendum thread on here have now decided that academics are untrustworthy money grabbers who don't care about teaching.

Don't be silly Mangosteen.

What is being critiqued is the claim by a group of vice chancellors of elite universities that Brexit would damage the 'global standing' of said elite universities.

You might also want to check the definition of 'cabal'.

There isn't a single poster on this thread who I 'know' or whose name I will remember next week.

However Dacre ( and I do like your username btw), what is also being critiqued is the approach of the brexit camp to attack anyone who disagrees or highlights the risks of a leave vote.

So far the Treasury, the Bank of England, University Vice Chancellors, NHS cheifs, The 1200 or so business leaders, the CBI, the BCC, Car manufacturers, the pharma industry, house builders, trade unions and many more group's preferences or judgement's on what is best for them, or what risks there are have been rubbished and dismissed by the exit camp.

small I don't think I know better than the VCs - I am saying I am looking at it from a different perspective.
I went into academia as a mature student - I had worked and been at management level in private small businesses, in fact my DP had his own business.
Most academics have never worked anywhere else but academia.
So some things were shocking to me - wouldn't happen in a private profit making business. I did become completely disillusioned.
The driver is the success - and the measure of that success is the grant money coming in not the accuracy and value of the research (and as vole says the commercial spin offs and business partnerships.)
Actually I said industry will drop research if they can't see a profit in the near future. Some have collaborations with Universities. Basically for a relatively small investment (for them) they get leads for future work.
Some of that I have issues with too - I fear for the impartiality even of not directly funded work. (In fact I have experience of what I believe was that happening)
I am for Brexit but purely on the basis of democracy - which I don't think we can improve with the EU in its current form. Change from within has been spouted for years - it hasn't happened. And I don't think we will get another opportunity.
Universities may suffer slightly in the short term - they might have to tighten their belts and review their methods - but I don't think a change of attitudes is necessarily a bad thing in general. And is a small price to pay to get out of EU which hopefully will lead to a reform.

baci, well students appeared to disagree with you in 2013. Have things improved since then?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27486606
www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/news/increase-in-students'-dissatisfaction-with-'poor-value-for-money-courses'/

And please lay off the spamming insults. I've been on MN for 10 years through the breastfeeding/BLW/SWMNBN days so I think I'm entitled to post on the EU ref board as well.

Anything that helps you confirm your bias eh?

"baci, well students appeared to disagree with you in 2013. "

not quite sure what you are asking. in answer to

"Most unis just want as many students as possible, they don't really care about the quality of teaching/value for money etc, if they did they'd charge tuition fees according to the actual costs of the course not the maximum £9000 across the board."

i stated that our university does care about the student experience. i am closely involved with academics delivering taught course, they are dedicated to delivering top quality teaching. but whatever you say.

Universities are MASSIVELY more concerned about the student experience than they were in 2013 yes.

The article the OP posted wasn't just elite universities - it was 100 universities, of which only Oxford, Cambridge and Durham can really claim to be elite.

EU fees are 10% of my institutions' income. Even if only half go elsewhere, that's a lot to lose. Not many organisations could afford to lose 5% of their income permanently and not have to make cuts somewhere.

And please lay off the spamming insults. I've been on MN for 10 years through the breastfeeding/BLW/SWMNBN days so I think I'm entitled to post on the EU ref board as well.

Yes indeed. I think I've been here about five years discussing various things parenting and otherwise.

Either get MNHQ to look into us or pipe down with the nonsense.

I think UCL, Kings, Imperial, St Andrew's, etc might reject your claim about that Titchy, they are all in the world's top 100 too, plus others.

*However Dacre ( and I do like your username btw), what is also being critiqued is the approach of the brexit camp to attack anyone who disagrees or highlights the risks of a leave vote.

So far the Treasury, the Bank of England, University Vice Chancellors, NHS cheifs, The 1200 or so business leaders, the CBI, the BCC, Car manufacturers, the pharma industry, house builders, trade unions and many more group's preferences*........

Exactly my point. Most of those are wealthy organisations doing very well under the status quo. Why would they want to risk change?

The reasons that many citizens might have for voting 'leave' just aren't things that will be organisational concerns for Big Pharma, a large Bank or Oxford University. And vice versa.

There's no conspiracy about it. Just different interests and priorities. And a lot of hyperbole thrown in.

But the thing is, rich organisations that employ a lot of people, that provide a lot of ordinary citizens with their livelihoods. Don't classify this as establishment vs the people its disingenuous. The CBI, BCC, TUC, NHS chiefs etc all represent the people that work for them and make up their members who are the "citizens",the Bank of England's forecasts are supposed to provide citizens with information about what they think will happen post brexit. Its not Us vs Them at all.

It seems from reading posts here that many "citizens" are voting out because they are worried about the impacts of immigration on public services, most of which are massively over stated or really the choice of UK governments not the EU. Many citizens are also confused about the way that the EU works, because of the masses of information which has been thrown their way giving different views, some of which are incorrect.

I think in the end a lot of citizens voting leave for whatever reasons will be very disappointed with the outcome that they get.

But the thing is, rich organisations that employ a lot of people, that provide a lot of ordinary citizens with their livelihoods.Don't classify this as establishment vs the people its disingenuous

I'm not being disingenuous.

I think the large, wealthy organisations are being disingenuous in exaggerating the possible difficulties and claiming that "livelihoods" are under serious threat.

Toomuchcoffee I'm not making any thing up I'm citing my own personal experience of my university from 1986-1989, where I knew people studying geography, microbiology and chemistry went of for a year to a European country in an exchange programme and we would in return get European students. We also had a huge language lab at our university where you could learn any number of foreign languages for free. Please don't accuse me of making things up just because that wasn't your experience . I don't know maybe some universities had better provision than others or maybe some students were just more resourceful than others

"I think the large, wealthy organisations are being disingenuous in exaggerating the possible difficulties and claiming that "livelihoods" are under serious threat."

Do the CBI or BCC represent large and wealthy organisations? Do the NHS leaders? What about the trade unions?

See when it comes to that your point about "wealth" is far easier to dismiss than your assertions about the overwhelming body of evidence that goes against you.

In the end, who and what organisations and independent bodies back up your theories? Come on you must have had some validation from somewhere..

In the end you, like Gove today say: "believe me not the experts" but make no real intellectual argument other than to attack the other side and like Gove today with his "economists are like the scientists paid by Hitler" argument you ARE disingenuous and misleading.

The intellectual rigour is seriously lacking, and therefore its far easier to dismiss your opinions than it is for you to dismiss the opinions of the experts.

I've enjoyed our debate, but at no point have you ever presented any evidence going the other way other than: "I think that". Sorry

I've enjoyed our debate, but at no point have you ever presented any evidence going the other way other than: "I think that". Sorry

By that token, you haven't adduced any evidence in support of your "the managers are experts; trust them" mantra.

Small nothing to do with the EU - but I would argue that the trade union leadership (on salaries of £100k +) no longer represent the workers....they are out of touch - which is why trade union membership is in decline. Not because
the trade unions have less power. It is all politics and power. They remind me of the pigs in Animal Farm... I wouldn't trust them...

Well, you might not.

I'll ask you a question. If the majority of the country go with leave, who will you trust to negotiate the trade deals? To run the negotiations with the EU and the 50 odd other states that they have trade deals with? Who will you ask to run monetary policy ? You don't like the experts, who are you going to employ?

Will you give it back to the experts that you've derided? Is Mark Carney getting the sack? Is the IFS never going to be used again? Will the government stop using PWC, HSBC etc as advisers?

What will happen is the same people making the predictions that you don't like will be asked to sort out the mess. At which point because the argument for leaving is so dishonest you will praise them.

Which shows the paucity of your arguments.

"the managers are experts; trust them" mantra"

That isn't my point, and you know it. Your point is "listen to me because the experts are wrong, I can't back up my point but they are".

Funny that I won't agree isn't it.