Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Please read this if you would like your children to attend uni in the UK.

99 replies

Rikkitikkitemper · 21/06/2016 10:27

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/leaders-of-100-top-uk-universities-warn-of-brexit-risk-to-global-standing-a7092516.html

OP posts:
fourmummy · 21/06/2016 22:46

Just reading the Times Higher now. Switzerland is on the rise (just read an article about breaking into the top ten) as are BRIC countries. UK still going strong and getting stronger with a greater showing of universities in the top 200 than in previous years. USA possibly waning (tiny wobble - Harvard has dropped down to sixth place). Also just read about Switzerland withdrawing their EU application as "only a few lunatics may want to join the EU now".

eyebrowse · 21/06/2016 22:52

The conservatives want all UK research to accountable to the cabinet.

If alternative EU funding is not available this will be even more catastrophic for independent research in the UK

Just5minswithDacre · 21/06/2016 22:59

I really don't understand this. If the experts in running universities say that there are risks to universities of leaving why don't people believe them?

The hyperbole certainly doesn't help their credibility, does it?

Besides, the vested interest is so clear; It's probably quite true that some funding streams would be lost and have to be replaced, but the idea that elite, prestigious universities will find that difficult is laughable.

So many extremely wealthy individuals and organisations are prophesying doom and disaster in shrill and histrionic tones. What they actually risk from Brexit is inconvenience, minor restructuring and some short lived turbulence in the markets making their investments slightly choppy for a while.

The sort of problems the 99% would kill for, really.

Just5minswithDacre · 21/06/2016 23:00

The conservatives want all UK research to accountable to the cabinet.

Pardon?

The Conservative Party are planning totalitarianism? Do you have a source for that?

fourmummy · 21/06/2016 23:06

What I should have said was, "UK still going strong and getting stronger with a greater showing of universities in the top 200 than in previous years" despite the small proportion of our R & D budget that comes from EU sources

Just5 Completely agree. We'll be just fine and even possibly better than we can currently imagine. As has been said, "Remain say we need a place at the table, but if the table is on The Titanic, count me out".

Itinerary · 21/06/2016 23:16

If I was going to university in the future, I'd rather it was in a democratic sovereign nation than a superstate I didn't want.

MachiKoro · 21/06/2016 23:21

just5mins actually, I don't think they were even polytechnics. Weren't they just little colleges, or something? [innocent whistle]

smallfox1980 · 21/06/2016 23:21

Hmm, people saying that everything will be fine for UK universities on an internet forum vs people who run UK universities saying that exit is a risk of UK universities, I know who I'm going to believe.

I'm sure if they had come out saying that things would be alright it would be shouted from the rooftops around here but instead like so many other industries its another group favouring remain.

I wonder who the exit camp will believe if they won't believe the universities, the car industry, the pharmaceutical industry, NHS leaders, a majority of economists, the majority of the financial industry, the CBI and the Bank of England and many, many more.

It seems that the exit camp attack anyone who makes a point that disagrees with their opinion, yet will make repeated appeals to authority for those who agree with them who can obviously equally easily be discredited.

It smacks of looking for support for preconceived opinions and confirmation bias more than anything else.

Just5minswithDacre · 21/06/2016 23:31

I do tend to have an ever so slightly Marxist take on things, if that's what you mean, yes.

But only in the very mild sense that when multi-millionaires keep badgering the masses to do something that benefits the multi-millionaires, I think the masses would do well to use their critical faculties before doing as they're told.

Just5minswithDacre · 21/06/2016 23:32

Machi Grin

TooMuchCoffeeMakesMeZoom · 21/06/2016 23:39

Turbinaria

I'm roughly the same age of you and I remember how hard it was todo a year abroad unless you were a language student. I was a science student and it was virtually impossible to get a European year, or even placement. I tried. My French was decent. My choice was to apply to a (now) Russell group uni for my science degree or to go for a shitty uni (salford) which offered a year abroad. Despite the offer of an unconditional scholarship (I was an Oxbridge candidate but a bit northern - more fool me) I knew it was a shit course with shit staff.
There were NO free EU language courses for science students pre 1992.No exchanges. I wanted to do these things and looked into them and I did not qualify.
1992 to me was an amazing dawn, and I thought all future students would see what incredible opportunities had been opened up to them.
Some years later, when chance ended me up in Brussels with my husband's job, I found that employers could not believe I 'hadn't done erasmus'.
1992 was a massive change. You might not be in favour of remaining but don't make up history.
So much changed with the introduction of the single market. And for the vast majority of people (students, workers, businesses) it was hugely positive.
How can we forget this so quickly?
I would have loved the opportunities the EU offered to people only five years later.

smallfox1980 · 21/06/2016 23:44

But the establishment vs the people claims are utterly bogus too.

Look at who is leading the out campaign, an Eton and Oxford Educated, Bullingdon club member who is an MP, former Mayor of London and a telegraph columnist. Another is the former President of the Oxford Union who is now Lord Chancellor, and a former Times leader writer, oh and neo-liberal think tank founder, the other is the former leader of the Conservatives who did much damage to the lives of the very poorest whilst work and pensions minister.

They are backed newspapers owned by billionaire tax haven resident knights of the realm, a non-dom hereditary peer, a billionaire media mogul who prefers London to Brussels because in London they do as he says (paraphrased), and another billionaire media mogul.

Hardly men of the people.

On top of this it is very ironic that when millionaire James Dyson (who moved his factory to Malaysia and said we should join the euro) backs your point you all claim validation. Also when the JCB chairman backed coming out that was pointed to as backing for the out crowd, when JCB have been fined for price fixing anti competitive activity by the EU.

You can't have it both ways.

fourmummy · 21/06/2016 23:48

For some reason, I have great difficulty placing my trust in CEOs of large corporations, large banking organisations...oh, hang on, I'll just copy the rest of your post, ...."the car industry, the pharmaceutical industry, NHS leaders, a majority of economists, the majority of the financial industry, the CBI and the Bank of England".

Just5minswithDacre · 21/06/2016 23:51

On top of this it is very ironic that when millionaire James Dyson (who moved his factory to Malaysia and said we should join the euro) backs your point you all claim validation

No I don't Hmm

Don't tell me what I think or say please, unless it's something I have really said that you can quote.

fourmummy · 21/06/2016 23:57

Even Juncker is laughing at us. Juncker.

Werksallhourz · 21/06/2016 23:57

My perspective is that EU students are not hugely significant income stream for most British universities, particularly at undergraduate level. In fact, they are perceived as a bit of a drain because they pay home fees but tend to require more support due to second language issues. Where universities appreciate EU students tends to be at postgraduate level, particularly taught programmes, where said programmes can be designed specifically for a certain EU market. International undergrads, however, are worth their weight in gold. The uni I work for would far rather recruit twenty internationals than forty EU students.

In fact, if we left the EU and EU students had to pay international fees, then I think we'd probably be a lot more active in trying to recruit them. Again, studying in Britain for an EU student is already significantly more expensive than studying in, say, Germany.

I don't know about other universities, but EU funding is not that significant where I work -- most of our funding comes from private enterprise, state research councils, the UK government or other national governments directly, or charitable trusts (Nuffield, Rowntree etc). I can't actually think of a research project that was funded by the EU in my faculty, and we tend to have a lot of successful proposals every year, and we are awarded multi-million pound grants. When I do see EU research affiliation, it is tends to be through a European wide research network and I am always a little bit dubious about the actual worth of some of these projects and who is actually paying the bills.

The whole EU exchange Erasmus thing? In my experience, it doesn't really work for our undergrads. Many of the European exchange universities we have arrangements with, with the exception of some universities in the Netherlands, require the host language to fluency and our home students just don't speak a European language to that level unless they are bilingual or language students -- and their year out tends to already be built into their 4 year course.

So most of our non-language home undergrads want to go to Canada, the States, New Zealand or Australia, and these exchanges are massively oversubscribed, require an overall first in your first year, work out to be shockingly expensive, and places are allocated by lottery. They are also a hellova lot more prestigious and give the wow factor to a CV.

No doubt other academics will feel differently though, but then one of my primary concerns is that I don't think we are recruiting enough home students to postgraduate STEM programmes and this will cause a massive economic problem for Britain in the future. The students in our postgrad engineering department are almost entirely Chinese, and they go back to China once they have finished their studies. We are pretty much educating another country's youth and ensuring their country's future economic success while ignoring our own needs. It's very blinkered.

smallfox1980 · 22/06/2016 00:09

So then who do you trust fourmummy and werks that may be true but why would the University Chiefs come out so much in favour of remaining if there wasn't a risk?

Sorry Dacre, but again I'm going to ask you who you trust to supply an opinion?

fourmummy · 22/06/2016 00:23

You can't have it both ways That's true. It's not an important point, though. Anecdotally, I haven't taken notice of any 'personalities' because what they say is always perspective-bound. What I have done is read lots, thought a great deal and concluded from that. I've plotted my own graphs, modelled my own outcomes and analysed my own data. I have attended lectures, and have gone outside of my field of expertise in my reading. I think that many people have done the same. 'Personalities' are mostly disappointing so it's best not to rely on their pronouncements anyway. The one thing going for my own position is that I am not beholden to anyone or anything to push a perspective. Remainers seem to find it difficult to believe that people may have lost trust in 'experts'.

Just5minswithDacre · 22/06/2016 00:26

Sorry Dacre, but again I'm going to ask you who you trust to supply an opinion?

I'd rather look for unbiased facts and form my own opinion.

Werksallhourz · 22/06/2016 00:38

why would the University Chiefs come out so much in favour of remaining if there wasn't a risk?

Ah ... there's a lot behind the scenes here. A very cynical part of me would say it is because they like the jollies. Grin There's a lot of meetings and committees and dinners all across Europe that involve traveling to nice places for work and meeting important people that think you are important.

If you are an academic, there's all the research conferences, the visiting professorships, the research networks that mean you have to fly to Germany and give a paper -- and all this bulks out your academic research profile which is great for you and great for your school's REF submission, which is also great for your department and university's ranking.

On a more practical note, I reckon a number of postgraduate programmes that attract EU students and don't attract home or internationals would need to close. That means firing academics, and research universities really don't like to do that. Having said that, recruiting to these programmes is getting tougher anyway as the cost of living in Britain is so high and the EU countries that don't have a very developed higher education system and who tend to look at British universities are the ones where the economy has gone down the toilet.

And yes, there is EU research funding. It doesn't impact us, but might some other research universities ... although I can't see how it would affect very many non-Russell Groups because they are not research intensives and they won't tend to qualify for that kind of level of funding anyway.

I think also that there is a lot of politics in this. Over the last twenty years, British universities have really bought into the ideal of a global research network, of which the notion of the EU is very much a part and to which certain EU goals provide the opportunity to research personal interests: as an example, social problems in Latin America. This global research ideal is also a function of a deep and in my opinion, naive belief in a kind of utopian globalisation of knowledge and discovery, forgetting that, actually, the countries of the EU and on a global basis are in economic competition.

Another aspect to it is that they like the status quo. They don't want change. They believe in the principles, rather than the reality, of the EU because most academics are largely liberal, left-leaning thinkers. A huge number of academics have never worked outside academia or outside state-sponsored institutions.

smallfox1980 · 22/06/2016 00:45

Well obviously, Dacre thats what I do too.

However, when I have read through the vast amount of information that has been available, I've noticed lots of sources that I would consider "unbiased" and impartial backing a remain vote, and several of them corroborating findings.

I also find the repeated attacks on any institution who backs remain as being "biased" frustrating as in many cases it is incorrect. For example on here I've seen University research accused of bias due to the university receiving some EU funding somewhere, I've seen the Bank of England accused of bias because of Carney's links with Goldman Sachs. These are just two examples and in the end I just don't buy it. If the EU was funding all of the organisations that have come out in favour of remaining enough so they would risk their reputations for impartiality on it they would have very little left over for anything else. Quite frankly its ridiculous.

I also feel foumummy, that it isn't that remain can't believe people don't put their trust in experts, it is that the mistrust of experts is being actively encouraged in ways like I have pointed out above. I also feel that had the leave campaign been able to get more business leaders, more economists etc on board they would have been making a big noise about it. They haven't got anything like the support they wanted so they are dismissing the "expert" opinions.

Of course critical thinking is important and I value it highly, however this example here typifies the behaviour of this. "The university leaders don't know what they are talking about, I know things will be fine, they are just scaremongering because they have vested interests" etc.

Werksallhourz · 22/06/2016 00:46

I'll also add ... you'd be surprised how much academic research is pretty much pointless. In a lot of disciplines outside STEM, research findings do not have any real-world impact. It's research done for research's sake.

If leaving the EU means we streamline and only fund useful research that will inform policy and practice or technological development, then I'm not too sure that is a bad thing. But technological development research tends to be funded by private enterprise or the academics involved spin off their own companies, so that element is a bit moot.

smallfox1980 · 22/06/2016 01:00

Its funny how all these closeted people with little experience of the outside world get to run top Universities isn't it? In charge of big decisions and huge budgets, with major accountability.

Yet they are willing to risk their reputations and annoy potential future funding in order to keep going on jollies?

Its a good way to paint them and a good attempt at persuasive writing but it doesn't really smack of the truth.

Love your subject bias too.

fourmummy · 22/06/2016 01:11

Small "The university leaders don't know what they are talking about, I know things will be fine, they are just scaremongering because they have vested interests" etc.

So, which way do we go? How can we ever separate out the unbiased from the biased position? You can't extract the vested interests in a position any more than I can highlight them. Except... the latter case is actually more believable. It's easier to show many examples of vested interests in public life than it is to show unbiased, altruistic, 'for the good of the people' actions. There are so many examples of non-altruistic behaviour that it's hardly surprising that people have lost hope. For me personally, Brexit represents hope because although imperfect, it's a way to try to create a better society.

Werk I agree with many of your points. They reflect my own experience very well.

Brokenbiscuit · 22/06/2016 01:27

I'm amused by the irony on this thread.

So the leaders of Britain's top universities unanimously declare that Brexit would damage our higher education sector.

A bunch of posters then proclaim that this can't possibly be true because we have some of the best universities in the world.

So what the bloody hell do those stupid academics running our world class universities actually know about anything?! Obviously, they just don't know what they're talking about...

Swipe left for the next trending thread