anyone leaning to "abstain"?

[TooMuchMNTime]

I am having that sense that politicians will just fuck it all up and it would be nice to quote Prince and look at it say "I do not have a horse in this race".

I normally always vote.

It also seems ok for people to worry about job security and vote remain, if they argue why. It seems ok to look down on those that want to leave become they worry about job security and give a simple answer for leaving.

Why is JC in a bind but BJ is a raging egomaniac who is only after one thing the house keys to number 10

"Why is JC in a bind but BJ is a raging egomaniac who is only after one thing the house keys to number 10"

Because lefties tend to take up more space on t'Internet. Real life voting doesn't however conform to that.

This thread resonates.

All I can say is you know what sort of person you are. You can't let others perception of one decision sway you. I know I would regret not putting my X on the ballot. But When the vote is over I make a vow never to refer to my own vote again!

This issue has engaged me but it has made me depressed about the future too. I will endeavour to find some positive way to act upon that that makes sense to me after Friday. It won't be via mainstream politics though.

I know there is lots of info on both sides, but this video - showing a lecture fromProf Michael Duggan of Liverpool University is excellent. Measured and factual. It's 25 mins long as clearly this is not a lighthearted decision we are making and the issues cannot be summarised in a 30 second glitzy advert. I think it's really worth watching.

Muddled, you don't have to justify your decision and you certainly don't have to tell anyone how you've voted. Of course there are many valuable, sensible reasons to choose to vote Leave. The airtime given to Farage and similar has been way out of proportion, and most Brexiters did not vote UKIP.

Also I wish the remain side would stop deliberately obscuring the big difference between concerns about current UK policies on immigration is not at all what is being presented as "all Brexiters are xenophobic and want to ban immigration".

Michael Duggan video though interesting his work is tied up with us being in the EU

Measured is that because he holds the automatically reapected Professor

Sweary, that's been doing the rounds on Twitter
didn't help me at all I'm afraid!

respected title of professor

Bloody auto correct

I thought BJ was committing political suicide going for Brexit
then I thought he was a stooge
I don't think he's got the same problems as JC but I also don't think it's about the keys to no 10 because this seems the less sure way to get those

My Dad, who is in his late sixties, is abstaining because he thinks it's a decision the younger generation should take as we will have to live with the consequences more than he will. I am voting but I find it very unsettling and I'll be glad when it's over. I felt similarly unsettled about the Scottish Independence Referendum.

Thanks everyone. I have been quite upset about it all and I have allowed my judgment to become clouded, but I can assure you that I shall at least put a mark on my ballot paper. I have a feeling that perhaps there are others who see the situation as I do but are keeping their voting intentions to themselves. Perhaps there are people who are saying they are undecided but who will vote out.

I recall arguing with a very good friend about the immigration issue some 10 years or so ago. It seemed clear to me then that the working classes were about to get stuffed and there was no-one speaking up for them, thanks to Blair and his champagne socialists. I said at the time that bad things would happen sooner or later if this was ignored. I agree that no-one has been speaking out for them for a long time and they don't have a voice of their own which is acceptable to many sections of society.

Also, I am finding that this vote it is intertwined with the "we need continual growth" message, which on a fundamental level seems to me to be bat-shit crazy. I can't stamp that feeling out.

Muddled "Also, I am finding that this vote it is intertwined with the "we need continual growth" message"

yes!! I keep meaning to get "Prosperity without growth" from the library so I can back up my arguments better.

some idiot posted on Twitter about how there weren't many restaurants in London 20 years ago!! And she's older than me.

there's a divide between people who honestly want every square inch of the land to be an economic unit of production and those who don't.

Too much that is a great book recommendation. Thank you!

Also thanks for the Liverpool university link too. Will watch in full later..

something I find interesting about economies and growth - albeit somewhat random - does anyone else find that clothes banks etc, though regularly emptied round here - are always absolutely brim full? I know businesses chuck out clothes they can't sell.

Charity shops in my area are having to refuse things and this isn't an affluent area. I see "growth" as equating to over consumption. Clearly a lot of people enjoy this or they wouldn't be consuming in the first place. But it's not something I have any interest in. I also cannot see how this house of cards will stay up forever.

I rather wish growth hadn't happened this fast. Again - a moment where you think, shit, it's all such a mess.

There is nothing to suggest that the UK would ever join the Euro if we stay. On the other hand, if we leave and things get so bad that we want/need to rejoin, it's a certainty that we would have to accept it.

There are other (real) reasons for choosing leave. I'm horrified at the number of threads I'm seeing on here which chuck around wildly inaccurate 'facts' as reasons to vote out. Then the same handful of posters pile in to create a huge dialogue about these imaginary scenarios.

There are also a surprising number of threads which start with the op saying they are undecided and then within two pages (if that) start writing long, detailed posts about why everyone should vote out.

I smell a rat.

But this one is particularly fun in that you are setting this thread up to argue that it's a good thing that we all become poorer because the economy has shrunk.

The economic case for Brexit is a disaster, so you're going to try to convince us that having a big economy is overrated and it will be so much better for us all to experience another recession.

Mango, no rat

more just a sense of "we will be screwed over regardless so just keep out of it and hope for early death".

oh before someone accuses me of being melodramatic...I've never wanted a long life

but I can't see it being enhanced by more runways and buildings and consumer shite.

Mango "The economic case for Brexit is a disaster, so you're going to try to convince us that having a big economy is overrated and it will be so much better for us all to experience another recession"

sorry we cross posted.

this is another reason I'm pondering "abstain". You will have noticed, I expect to lose my own job if we Brexit.

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and the links (especially the book) - thank you.

I have been firmly in the leave camp for a couple of months now, but I truly believed I would vote remain when the referendum was first announced. I also understand the feeling of self-doubt that comes from finding yourself wanting to vote the same way as some unsavoury characters.

What bugs me is that this referendum has been dressed up as the economists verses the racists, your head verses your heart (as if we are all closet racists and we must let reason rule over our base instincts).

The referendum is not about the next prime minister, the economy or policies on immigration, the environment or anything else. These are all secondary concerns, the details of which are about as accurate as a long-term weather forecast.

The referendum is about governance. It is about what shape you want that governance structure to take. For me, a liberal democracy is essential for a free, fair and prosperous society. Unfortunately, the EU fails the social contract test in my eyes, so I will be voting to leave.

A year ago I hoped that I would vote remain and I sat on the fence for a long time, until David Cameron came back from Brussels pretending that he had achieved something substantial. It is a great shame that he has decided to treat the referendum like an Oxford Union debate that he must win at all costs. Instead, he should have let others do the campaigning, while he maintained a statesmanly focus on the importance of the democratic process and enfranchising the population. He could have been a pillar of calm at the centre of a divisive storm, instead of fanning the flames. He has been irresponsible, regardless of the referendum's outcome. It is all deeply disappointing and I can understand that some people may feel that the referendum has become so muddied that they would rather have no part in it.

My tuppence on voting is: vote, or spoil. But go to the polls regardless.

Don't abstain: you'll just be part of the percentage who simply didn't turn up. You won't be counted. And that makes your opinion after the result invalid. And this indifference insults a lot of people who got us the vote in the first place- the forces, and the suffragettes. Yes, Im going there. We have a vote, many nations and women in certain nations don't - i can't understand why anyone with a vote would willingly just not bother. To make a point that doesn't count.

If you can't be on a soapbox days prior to an historic vote, when can you?

Oh and Harry - I'm unreasonably delighted with your use of an

Whole different soapbox , though .