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Brexit

The most surprising thing about this referendum campaign?

147 replies

fourmummy · 15/06/2016 07:54

I have hugely enjoyed being on MN during this time, having intelligent debates with well-informed people, but I have also found some things surprising. The most surprising thing for me has been the idea that we'll be pushed back to the Dark Ages by the Tories, and that we therefore need EU to protect us against this. I have also been surprised by people's voting intentions in RL, which I wouldn't have predicted. Have you been surprised by anything?

OP posts:
SpringingIntoAction · 15/06/2016 22:52

It's interesting that (broadly speaking) the middle classes, who on average have more assets and safer jobs, are going for the more pragmatic, risk-averse option.

Whereas the working classes, who on average are at greater risk from an economic downturn/more austerity, are voting on principle

On what research are you basing that view? Been out on a street stall? Had a go at canvassing in a few diverse areas?

I have.

The middle-class guy with whom I leafletted yesterday will be amused to hear he's a Remainer, as would the Oxford educated members of the U3A and those living in multimillion £ houses who have declared their vehement support for Leave.

The unemployed people on the social housing estate who tell me that they are being squeezed for jobs, housing, school places and medical appointments and who are proud that their ancestor fought to keep this country sovereign and free will be rather annoyed that you think they are voting against their own interests.

But, as I keep saying, carry on misunderstanding where your support lies - that's why we'll win.

Pointthefinger · 15/06/2016 22:53

Irene - yes, these highly principled Sun and Mail readers are leading the way to the moral high ground.

IrenetheQuaint · 15/06/2016 22:55

I was drawing on the chart posted above - as I said, it was a generalisation, but the trend is clear.

Pointthefinger · 15/06/2016 23:02

There are trends, but you cannot extrapolate from this graph that the working classes are basing their vote on principle to a greater extent than middle classes.

You can say, generally speaking, that the greater your education level, the more likely you are to vote remain.

You can also say, generally speaking, that if you are a green, libdem, labour or SNP supporter, you are also more likely to vote remain. But if you vote Tory or UKIP, you are more likely to want out.

If you read shitrags like the sun and the mail, you are more likely to be misinformed and vote out.

It's a good graph. I like graphs.

claig · 15/06/2016 23:13

Another surprise is how open the discussion of elites and Establishment versus the peoplenow is.

I have said it for years, but now you can't turn on BBC Newsnight like tonight without Oxbridge Evan Davis discussing it with Oxbridge "Cameron's Brain", Steve Hilton.

Evan was desperately trying to put the genie back in the bottle, but it is now out and can never be hidden again.

There is no left vs right (Corbyn, Cooper, Umunna and the rest of the shower are all with Cameron and Osborne), there is only them against us, the Establishment' and its servants versus the people.

Everybody now knows it and whatever the result, the credibility of the Establishment and its servants has been destroyed which means that politics will have to change completely afterwards or the people will just vote the whole lot out.

YourPerception · 16/06/2016 00:51

Define compliant and free thinkers.

You have had a few descriptions already.

We are being spoken to by what Claig calls the 'Elites' as if we are children. They are using abusive parent tactics you hear about in relationships FOG (fear obligation and guilt) to encourage you to be compliant to your party leader your union your employer and so forth.

Free thinkers are doing their own thing and don't seem to be affected by the NLP as easily. Free thinkers aren't even thinking about migration and economics they are looking at other things.

YourPerception · 16/06/2016 00:54

Free thinkers also don't care if you call them racist, thick or working class.

YourPerception · 16/06/2016 01:00

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences

Maybe amongst the rebels and free thinkers there are people who are actually of a higher intelligence to enable them see something not seen by the compliant graduate middle class remainers?

MangoMoon · 16/06/2016 01:09

It's the free thinkers in life that are the trail blazers & entrepreneurs.
People who are not afraid to venture outside the box and take a leap into the unknown.

The compliant people will willingly be led by the nose and follow the party line because they don't want to take any responsibility for failure.

If all fails following a change brought about by the free thinkers, the compliant have someone to blame - they're absolved of all.
The free thinkers will lick their wounds, regroup & try to change the world again tomorrow.

IrenetheQuaint · 16/06/2016 07:48

"Free thinkers aren't even thinking about migration and economics they are looking at other things"

Well, I hope we don't have that many free thinkers around in that case, as (whichever way you're planning to vote) migration and economics are massive issues for the UK.

MuddledMuse · 16/06/2016 08:05

I'm sorry if I appear a little on the hard of thinking side (it's early, after all), but could someone please explain what Point's graph is supposed to show? For example, the Graduate figure in favour of stay is 40%. Does that mean that 40% of graduates support leave? If it doesn't mean that, what does it mean?

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 16/06/2016 08:10

Muddled, it means that if only graduates were voting, 'Stay' would have a 40% lead. For example.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 16/06/2016 08:11

And on the other side of the chart, if only Mail readers were voting, 'Leave' would have a 50% lead.

MuddledMuse · 16/06/2016 08:11

Aahh, ok. Thank you, Boulevard.

Justchanged · 16/06/2016 08:12

The graph is the 'net' difference. So if say 70% of graduates vote In and 30% vote out, the net balance is 40% for In

kinkytoes · 16/06/2016 08:24

I've been surprised by how many people seem to be choosing their vote depending on which politician / celebrity they want to align themselves with or against. This vote is far more important and far-reaching than that! This government will be fleeting in the big scheme of things. Memes I've seen on Facebook about not being left 'alone with the Tory party' are so short sighted. They won't be in power forever you know?

Also surprised by the emphasis on the economy by the Remain side. Like all anyone cares about is money. It's not!

MangoMoon · 16/06/2016 08:28

The thing that has surprised me the most is how it's brought out the absolute worst in some people.

It's like they have given themselves free reign to be obnoxious as possible about anyone who dares to have a differing opinion.

Both sides have done this.

nearlyhellokitty · 16/06/2016 08:36

kind of amused at the whole freethinker vs compliant thing when many (not all!) of the leave people I've been debating with on here seem to swallow the speaking points of the leave campaign whole - whether or not they are fact based!

RedToothBrush · 16/06/2016 08:38

Black-and-white fallacy
Presenting only two choices, with the product or idea being propagated as the better choice.
eg "You're either with a free thinker, or compliant

Ad nauseam
This argument approach uses tireless repetition of an idea. An idea, especially a simple slogan, that is repeated enough times, may begin to be taken as the truth. This approach is more effective alongside the propagandist limiting or controlling the media. Eg: Take back control
Did anyone spot how many times, Gove repeated that last night. Or how many times that phrase has been used in party political broadcasts. Start counting. Its interesting.

Appeal to fear
Appeals to fear seek to build support by instilling anxieties and panic in the general population.
See Turkey

Appeal to prejudice
Using loaded or emotive terms to attach value or moral goodness to believing the proposition.
See immigrants

Bandwagon
Bandwagon and "inevitable-victory" appeals attempt to persuade the target audience to join in and take the course of action that "everyone else is taking."
Inevitable victory: invites those not already on the bandwagon to join those already on the road to certain victory. Those already or at least partially on the bandwagon are reassured that staying aboard is their best course of action. (e.g., "The debate is over. Nearly everyone who matters agrees with me..")
Join the crowd: This technique reinforces people's natural desire to be on the winning side. This technique is used to convince the audience that a program is an expression of an irresistible mass movement and that it is in their best interest to join.

Common man
The "plain folks" or "common man" approach attempts to convince the audience that the propagandist's positions reflect the common sense of the people. It is designed to win the confidence of the audience by communicating in the common manner and style of the target audience. Propagandists use ordinary language and mannerisms (and clothe their message in face-to-face and audiovisual communications) in attempting to identify their point of view with that of the average person.
'The man on the street who has not been listened to for years' is a familiar theme

Demonizing the enemy
Making individuals from the opposing nation, from a different ethnic group, or those who support the opposing viewpoint appear to be subhuman, worthless, or immoral, through suggestion or false accusations. Dehumanizing is also a termed used synonymously with demonizing, the latter usually serves as an aspect of the former.
See migrants.
Also see working class v middle class pitched against each other

Exaggeration
An exaggeration (or hyperbole) occurs when the most fundamental aspects of a statement are true, but only to a certain degree. It is also seen as "stretching the truth" or making something appear more powerful, meaningful, or real than it actually is. Saying that a person ate 20 spring rolls at a party when they actually ate 7 or 8 would be considered an exaggeration.
See 'flooded with immigration'
See £350 million battle buses

Flag-waving
An attempt to justify an action on the grounds that doing so will make one more patriotic, or in some way benefit a group, country, or idea. The feeling of patriotism this technique attempts to inspire may not necessarily diminish or entirely omit one's capability for rational examination of the matter in question.
Little England in a nutshell

Glittering generalities
Glittering generalities are emotionally appealing words that are applied to a product or idea, but present no concrete argument or analysis.
Wondering why Brexit doesn't really have any solid policies? Here's why.

Half-truth
A half-truth is a deceptive statement that includes some element of truth. It comes in several forms: the statement might be partly true, the statement may be totally true but only part of the whole truth, or it may utilize some deceptive element, such as improper punctuation, or double meaning, especially if the intent is to deceive, evade, blame, or misrepresent the truth.
Many, many examples.

Intentional vagueness
Generalities are deliberately vague so that the audience may supply its own interpretations. The intention is to move the audience by use of undefined phrases, without analyzing their validity or attempting to determine their reasonableness or application. The intent is to cause people to draw their own interpretations rather than simply being presented with an explicit idea. In trying to "figure out" the propaganda, the audience forgoes judgment of the ideas presented. Their validity, reasonableness and application may still be considered.
Yes free thinking, is what it is all about.

Labeling
A euphemism is used when the propagandist attempts to increase the perceived quality, credibility, or credence of a particular ideal. A dysphemism is used when the intent of the propagandist is to discredit, diminish the perceived quality, or hurt the perceived righteousness of the individual. By creating a “label”, “category”, or “faction” of a population, it is much easier to make an example of these larger bodies, because they can uplift or defame the individual without actually incurring legal-defamation. Labeling can be thought of as a sub-set of guilt by association, another logical fallacy.
Othering. Quite important.

Loaded language
Specific words and phrases with strong emotional implications are used to influence the audience, for example, using the word reforms rather than a more neutral word like changes.
Another little game to play whilst watching question time tonight.

Milieu control
An attempt to control the social environment and ideas through the use of social pressure
Everyone I talk to, is....

Obfuscation, intentional vagueness, confusion
Generalities are deliberately vague so that the audience may supply its own interpretations. The intention is to move the audience by use of undefined phrases, without analyzing their validity or attempting to determine their reasonableness or application. The intent is to cause people to draw their own interpretations rather than simply being presented with an explicit idea. In trying to "figure out" the propaganda, the audience forgoes judgment of the ideas presented. Their validity, reasonableness and application may still be considered.
It means you can imply something - without actually saying it, and then others apply their own meaning to that based on their own beliefs.

Oversimplification
Favorable generalities are used to provide simple answers to complex social, political, economic, or military problems.
Brexit.
The ENTIRE idea of Brexit.

Scapegoating
Assigning blame to an individual or group, thus alleviating feelings of guilt from responsible parties and/or distracting attention from the need to fix the problem for which blame is being assigned.
The EU.

Virtue words
These are words in the value system of the target audience that produce a positive image when attached to a person or issue. Peace, hope, happiness, security, wise leadership, freedom, "The Truth", etc. are virtue words. Many see religiosity as a virtue, making associations to this quality effectively beneficial.
See 'Free Thinkers'...

I can ASSURE you, that you are anything but a free thinker if you are using the phrase 'you are either a Free Thinker and Compliant'

You have been propaganda-ed good and proper so much you haven't even noticed it.

The Remain campaign are just as guilty of using propaganda techniques, including some of the above and including others that are not here (Appeal to Fear being their biggest one that Leave have kindly taken much time and effort to point out by renaming Remain 'Project Fear' - another propaganda technique in itself).

There will be very very very few people in this country who have not been influenced in someway by the propaganda being spewed out in huge quantities by this campaign (myself included).

Indeed the main way to tell if you have been influenced or not, is if you are in complete denial of the fact you have or not.

Free Thinkers, my arse!

claig · 16/06/2016 08:43

The above post sounds like propaganda against free thinkers

nearlyhellokitty · 16/06/2016 08:45

hahaha Claig, you are funny.

claig · 16/06/2016 08:45
Smile
nearlyhellokitty · 16/06/2016 08:48

and actually a very interesting post MrsBlackthorn - really puts the finger on many of the ways people speak. while claiming that they are the rebels/ the ones in the right.

MangoMoon · 16/06/2016 08:48

Claig Grin

namechangeparents · 16/06/2016 08:51

What has surprised me is that people would rather have immigration from outside the EU than from inside it. I'd have thought that Europeans are culturally more similar to us and assimilate more easily?

As for not being left alone with the Tories - who is going to take their place? Scotland and Wales have credible alternatives, England really doesn't. Well not unless the Libdems recover, the Greens have a huge increase in support or Labour sort themselves out. Are any of those likely?