Is anyone else getting quite tired of being called a racist?

[Peppatina]

I know it can't just be me.

It doesn't matter what carefully thought out reasons a brexiter has for wanting to leave (I've seen some very articulate and reasoned ones on mn itself) we are still all getting lumped into a stereotypical group of closet racist idiots.

And Lord forbid any of those reasons might just involve any concern over levels of eu migration!

I've been told that I'm essentially imagining the three week waiting list for my GP or that this is nothing to do with eu migration. If I say I know it is because of the names being called out I become the equivalent of Enoch Powell.

The same goes for a certain local estate very much being a no go area, especially for young girls. After braving this street once with my children and being spat on and shouted at by a group of very hostile Romanian men/boys I've been told I imagined it.

When I had my son a few week ago my I was the only English speaking person in my ward. A polish man was shouting and being very aggressive to staff as they were struggling to find an interpreter.

I absolutely know that not every migrant is aggressive and that they should build more schools and go surgeries but I believe I'm right to be concerned about a high number of migrants who are not intergrating with their local community and the unsustainable strain on services.

I'm sick of being told that my experiences don't matter. That to even mention that this is what life is like in our town means I am a racist or little englander.

I was also thinking while washing up just now about integration.

I do think there is a certain unwillingness amongst the left to discuss integration at all as we feel it then buys in to this wider xenophobic rhetoric which seems to be more and more widely accepted nowadays. And I think it does need to be discussed.

But

Think about integration. I mean really think about it. You've come to a brand new country. Not necessarily because you want to. Because you get paid peanuts in your own country and you'd like to provide a better life for your family. So, ok. You arrive in Britain. You can hardly speak English. You'll learn as you go, but it will take time. Because of this, you can only do shit, hard-graft type jobs. You don't get paid a lot but it's still more than you get in your own country. You work long hours. When you go to the supermarket, most of the foods are unfamiliar to you. You're terribly homesick. You miss your family. You miss your friends.

In those circumstances, what would you do? Wouldn't you spend your down time socialising with people who speak the same language you do? People you can talk to about the country you left behind? People who can make you feel a little more at home?

I don't think, when people nonchalantly state "oh migrants don't integrate" that they truly think about what integration is. I don't think they put themselves in their shoes.

Enthusiasm What do you call 'been integrated in the society'?

fwiw, I came here speaking English. Within 6 months I was completely bilingual (as proven by the 'English' test I had to do. I actually got better grades than some English people who were doing it to emigrate to Australia).
I've been here for 20 years. I have 3 dcs, married to a British husband.

On paper, I can hardly be more integrated than that. In reality it took me more than 10 years to realise some of the British ways (eg all the stuff about class), I still miss a hell of a lot clues that make it hard for me to 'mix' in my small town (1950s style).
I have learnt that you can only integrate so far. The ones that will really be integrated (despite DH being British!) are my grand children. My dcs still have too many 'ways of being' that signalled them as 'not fully british' even though they are born and bred here.... And it's all the British (esp children/teenagers) that have spent their time highlighting how they were not quite British too...

And fwiw, the people I really get on with are still other 'immigrants'. NOt people from my own countries. But peole who have travelled and are happy to accept slightly different ways of being.

I'm happy to accept that I live in the middle of nowhere and that the situation would be different in London etc... But that's the other side of the reality too...

'Or would you use their accent to still identify 'where' they are coming rom?'

Hello, Hester

'Many British fishermen sold their quotas. Voluntarily for short term gain'

Just like many politicians sold the people down the river, but just because they chose to do that, doesn't mean that all future generations have to live with the consequences. That is why we are having a Referendum, to change things, to rectify things and to "tale back control" of our fishing rights.

'And now they moan and moan and moan because they can't catch and sell as much as they want'

But if foreign fishing fleets were excluded from our waters, our fishermen would no longer need to moan as there would be more than enough fish to go round, and our quotas would be set by our elected political class and not by unelected civil servants in Brussels or elsewhere.

'However if we leave the EU, I'm certain our marine environment will go down the plughole. '

I think that the British people are fully capable of making sensible decisions and doing what is right and we don't need unelected servants in Brussels to run our affairs. We ran our fishing waters fine before we joined the EU.

I am strongly backing remain but I think calling leavers (for want of a better word) racist or xenophobic is just pure laziness. I have had conversations with hundreds of people on both sides.

I think the official campaigns have handled things badly, on both sides, and vote leave is being tarred with racism because it preys on people's prejudices. This has wrongly attracted some far right extremists.

For anyone to base their decision on immigration is not wise. If we remain then things will stay mostly as they are. If we leave them there is the possibility of changing the rules on immigration BUT this is not guaranteed, I'm not convinced on the points system and also countries like Norway are not in the EU but has to accept free movement of people to trade in the EU single market. This would leave us back where we started but without the benefits of an EU membership.

Sukey I never knew that they sold that off to and they want to leave. I heard that a job went out to 800 people in this country to pick strawberries and only 1 replied. Am I dreaming.

Sorry wrong cut and past quote at the beginning, I meant to use

"I had a different username then"

do you really think I am not aware of any of the points you have made

We also have the issue that some immigrants really feel no need to integrate, some keep their women and girls away from too much western influence

I have lived in a Muslim country found it quite easy integrate, language barrier at times and cultural differences often baffled me but I managed I made the effort and I accept that life is different in other countries

And so have my family coming to live here though they did experience awful racism especially in the 70's but very much felt when in Rome .... That is not something I would preach to people but it helped them They have still managed to hold on to cultural practices but they are not British or want to be

Aristole dd is so fully British i was asked (more than once) if i'm her nanny

I am an immigrant's daughter. My brother is also a migrant, in another country.

Immigration does worry me, too, despite the huge contribution paid to this country by people like my mother, who worked most of her life for the NHS.

Where l live fields are being torn up to build new homes on a vast scale. It makes me sad.

But I will vote remain as the issues are more complex than just this.

However, branding people racists if they are genuinely concerned about an increasing population is not right. It also won't make them more likely to vote remain, either. My immigrant mother is voting brexit.

Op. To answer your first question, yes. You are not alone.

Aristotle I have not directed posts to you personally

Habe I anywhere suggested no immigrants integrate or very few do

To ignore that it isn't working in some parts of the U.K. (and as mentions before very much poor areas) isn't something that should be ignored

The thing is that most people who are 'not integarting' aren't the European immigrants. They are from Pakistan, India etc...

And it has happened more because the UK has a culture of 'open arms' where anyone who comes with their own ways of dressing/eating/praying etc... Should be accepted just like they are, with their own 'culture'.
Why should anyone make an effort 'to integarte' if at the same time, people from that country are told they have to accept people with all their differences unless they want to be labelled racist?

That's why I'm asking, what do you mean by integrated?
Do you mean speaking English?
Do you mean adopting the British customs? If they which ones? Queuing to take the bus or accepting that arranged marriage is a no-no here?
Or do you mean being able to pass for a native (ways to being/speaking/dressing/values)

Being integrated into a culture can have lots of meanings. Which ones is it?

Not everyone who's voting in thinks all the outers are racist. Not even the ones who are only voting out because of their anecdotal evidence of the woes of immigration.

It should be clear enough by now that whether or not something, someone, a word, an ideology, a point of view is racist is quite a nuanced debate which involves much subjectivity and personal feeling. Just because you or anyone else does not identify as a racist doesn't mean you can't be found to be one - by one, several, many or all the other people of the world. The fact is all of us, every one of us, should ask ourselves regularly "is my belief system fundamentally racist?".

The only thing that worries me on these threads is how many people don't seem to ask themselves that question. I'm not saying the answer they might get is anything other than "nope, still quite sure I'm not racist", but it's the reluctance to ask, in the face of so many voices saying "just check yourself a second". Not everyone, but many people just come straight back out with I AM/THIS IS NOT RACIST.

But people with racist views have never throughout history said they are racist. Instead, they have claimed that the 'other' is problematic / taking their jobs / their space etc. Classic racism.

I think learning to speak English is very important

I think accepting that values/customs can be different and they are to be respected

Recent governments have completely failed to scale up maternity resources, schools, housing etc despite knowing the population growth fuelled by immigration demanded action. It is time the people held those in power to account and forced proper planning rather than bickering amongst ourselves about whether being concerned by this appalling failure is racist.

Just because you or anyone else does not identify as a racist doesn't mean you can't be found to be one - by one, several, many or all the other people of the world. The fact is all of us, every one of us, should ask ourselves regularly "is my belief system fundamentally racist?".

True, and another way to look at it is to say that society itself is prejudiced (about race, gender, sexuality, all kinds of things), and that since we are shaped by society we all naturally tend to absorb and reflect its prejudices. The important thing is to try and become as self-aware about it as possible. That's the only way to fight it.

I heard an interview on the radio today with a loiad of people in Sunderland. They were all saying they were voting leave because immigrants were stealing their jobs, making it difficult to see a GP etc. But then they all confessed that they actually persdonslly weren't affected by any of these things. So they were simply regurgitating what the media had told them. London is way more mixed than most parts of the UK and yet that isn't where UKIP is gasining ground. It's in places which have been very little impacted by immigration.

And that's racist.

Yy Lynda

I heard the Sunderland thing too. It was really depressing.

Is anyone else concerned that all immigration/social problems are blamed on the EU? The majority of immigration to the UK comes from outside the EU. Only a small part of immigration will be affected by Brexit. However the economy is likely to nosedive as we cut relations with our largest trading partner and the largest trading block in the world (yes with a GDP that is larger than the US).

Do you really believe that the way to cut NHS waiting times is to have a recession, which will blow yet another hole in public finances? A strong economy allows good public services.

justchanged many of the concerns regarding immigration stem from the prospect of other countries joining the EU.

Net EU migration IS increasing, year on year and we can't control that. With new EU member states, it will worsen.

My very good Polish friends, who contribute greatly to UK society, are all pro-Brexit.

The U.K. cant cope. The NHS will collapse in the next few decades. There isn't the housing or education.

The EU has had its day.

Justchanged yes this concerns me. As I said earlier, Norway isn't a part of the EU but must accept free movement of people to trade in the single market. They have a higher proportion per head of EU migration than we do inside the EU.

Lots of people say 'oh well Canada, South Korea, US don't have free movement to trade' yes well, they are not in the same situation as us. There aren't many clubs where you can get more benefits and perks from cancelling your membership.

Justchanged Keep on fighting the good fight the only way to keep GB great is to keep it in the EU we will be stronger. I fear for this country if we come out and can we afford that hit. I respect anyones decision to leave as long as its not about immigration and its for the good of the country.

If we leave interest rates and tax will go up and its the poor people in this country who will pay. We need to keep the rich rich don't we and the royals need their money. Where will it all come from but from poor people like you and me. I have already got my plan together if we leave what about any of you.